Exploring Forgiveness With Dr. Heather Browne

Join host Gretta and Dr. Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT, for a lively discussion that centers around forgiveness and then branches off into many ghost-related subjects. 
In this episode, Dr. Browne shares her perspective on:

• Why you don't need to  forgive the person who ghosted you 
• The benefits of forgiving 
• How to find closure after being ghosted
• Navigating embarrassment, shame, and guilt
• How to communicate with a returning  ghost
• When ghosting becomes abuse
• Dating with integrity

Whether you were ghosted in friendship, romance, business, or family, this episode provides actionable ways to find peace after being ghosted.

Connect With Dr. Heather Browne:
New Book: Speaking with the Heart: Transforming Your Relationship and Communication with Compassion and Connection
Dr. Browne's Website | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube 

Connect With Gretta:
Free Guide: What to Say To Your Ghost
Coaching With Gretta
Take Your Power Back Workshop
Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com

BetterHelp:
Go to https://betterhelp.com/copingwithghosting for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help #sponsored

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah

Disclaimer:  This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice gi

Are you ready to move forward after being ghosted? Are you tired of worrying, stressing, and struggling to find answers? If you want to regain control of your thoughts and feel more at peace, there’s a solution for you. For less than the cost of one coaching session, you can download the new Take Your Power Back Workshop. In it, Gretta and Coach Estee K. will help you better understand why ghosting happens, ways to feel better now, and actionable steps to take your power back. Your purchase will help support this podcast, so it’s a win-win!

Note to All Listeners: Ghosting is defined as: The practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication (Oxford Languages).
When you leave an abusive situation without saying "goodbye," it's not ghosting, it's "self-protection." When you quietly exit a relationship after a boundary has been violated, it's not ghosting, it's "self-respect."

Transcript

Gretta: 0:16

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing and understanding for anyone who has been ghosted. That provides hope, healing and understanding for anyone who has been ghosted. I'm your host, Gretta, and this episode is all about forgiveness. And before you hit the stop button, I promise I won't pressure you into forgiving the person who ghosted you. This show is all about exploring the benefits and drawbacks of forgiveness, both for yourself and others, and finding peace even if forgiveness isn't your path. I'll also address the many questions I've received from our thoughtful listeners about forgiveness, and I'm honored to introduce today's guest, Dr. Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT, TEDx speaker and best-selling author of Speaking with the Heart Transforming your Relationship and Communication with Compassion and Connection. As a relationship expert, dr Brown has worked with thousands of individuals and couples in psychotherapy.

Dr. Heather Browne: 1:26

Oh, . am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Gretta.

Gretta: 1:31

It's my pleasure. I'd like to just start with the basics. So what does the word forgive mean to you.

Dr. Heather Browne: 1:39

Well, and I want to start with what I have a feeling the audience responded with, which is start with what I have a feeling the audience responded with, which is we pull back on that, don't we?

Dr. Heather Browne: 1:53

When we hear the word forgiveness, which you would hope would be this positive, lovely word, we kind of all go oh, because it takes us into our shame. And so I would love to start with that, because it's important to be aware of that, because that's not really quite forgiveness. Forgiveness is when you're at a place where you have worked through whatever you've needed to work through for what's happened to you or someone, how they have treated you, and you are at the place where you are ready and wanting to no longer have this impact you. It's your right of passage for yourself to free yourself from any kind of anger or frustration or holding on. It's not necessarily about the other solely, and I think that's a place where we really get mucky, where I feel like I have to forgive you, even though I'm not ready, and my response is no, you don't, because it's largely for you to stop holding you in that place.

Gretta: 2:58

That makes sense. What is to you when you forgive somebody? Does it mean that you have to see them again? Do you have to have a reunion with them?

Dr. Heather Browne: 3:09

It would depend upon what you decide, because that's up to you. You forgive someone, and so then whatever moves forward is up to you. When someone has hurt you, when someone has wronged you, it's up to you to decide. What do you choose to do, and whatever that might look like, so it might be solely I'm going to forgive you that you did this horrible thing to me, and I might not even ever tell you. I just might need to do it in my heart and in my mind so this no longer festers, bothers me or makes me feel badly about myself, and I'm not even going to tell you. Or it could be all the way to the far extreme, which is I want our relationship to be great. I want to learn from this, I want to grow from this and I'm going to love you deeply, deeply, deeply, and see you all the time. So it's from no contact to complete wherever you feel is best suited towards yourself and your future.

Gretta: 4:10

Yeah, and some people's ghosts have passed away so they're never going to see them again, and yet you can still forgive them.

Dr. Heather Browne: 4:19

You can forgive somebody after they have died, 100%. You can forgive somebody who has left her life and is never returning, and you can forgive somebody who lives within the house. So it's really up to you, it's whatever you need so that you are no longer being held back or frustrated, angry, hurt, irritated by whatever went on with this other person.

Gretta: 4:43

Exactly For me, forgiveness is all about. I can think of this person, the person who ghosted me, and I'm not going to feel a charge or big emotions, or like they still have power over me in some way, like I've really let go of my anger and resentment.

Dr. Heather Browne: 5:01

That's the key. When we're angry, when we're upset, when we're frustrated, when we're obsessed, if you will the other person, the situation has our power and the reason for forgiveness is to free yourself of that and in whatever way and that's going to be up to you to decide how do you free the other person? And that, as I said, might be no contact, they might have passed over, or it might be that you become very close again, but the key to forgiveness is really more so for you to not be stuck and caught and continually hurt by this event or this situation.

Gretta: 5:53

That's important and helpful to hear. So the big question then becomes should listeners forgive the people who ghosted them and, if so, why?

Dr. Heather Browne: 6:00

Well, I don't like the word should, because that puts blame or responsibility on someone and once again it takes away their choice. And when you've been wronged you didn't have a choice. So I'm definitely not going to tell somebody now. You get to not have a choice with this, but now you have to forgive. So to me there isn't a should. I think it's unfortunate that our society tells us that we have to, that we need to, that we must, that there's something wrong with us. If we don't, you've already been injured. That's going to be up to you to decide. Do what honors you, do what serves you, do what takes care of you so you're not then injuring yourself in the process. So no should. It comes down to what is best for you.

Dr. Heather Browne: 6:56

There are people who've been wronged and they don't forgive and they let go of it and move away. So I guess you could say, in a sense, that's a forgiveness because they let go of it and move away. So I guess you could say, in a sense, that's a forgiveness because they let go of the connection to it, but they didn't go through some deep. You know, I forgive you and I forgive the situation. They just say it's done, it's over with. I'm not going to deal with it anymore. I have moved on. But to me that's not really necessarily forgiveness. That is choosing to have it no longer impact you, but not there's a different purpose behind the forgiveness than it's over, it's done. Forgiveness goes a little bit more to like I'm going to make it right within myself, moving forward, whereas just kind of moving away has a different energetic to it.

Gretta: 7:52

I wonder if there's a right time to forgive. Is it just what feels best to you? And the reason I asked this is because a listener did ask when should we forgive the ghost, especially if it's been a long-term relationship? I've known this person for my whole life and then they suddenly ghosted me, so when should I forgive them?

Dr. Heather Browne: 8:13

Well, once again it comes back to the word should. So there isn't an answer. Yeah, and some people stay angry and mad with an ex forever, and if that's what they choose to do, that's their life and that's their choice. When you feel that you're at the place where you no longer want this sticking to you, when you no longer feel like you need to give that person bandwidth in your heart and in your mind, because as soon as the person has ghosted you and if they don't clean it up really quickly, because as soon as the person has ghosted you and if they don't clean it up really quickly physically, that relationship is over. And for the other person, like, they've already cut the tie with you, so they're done, so the tie that you have is really just yours. So clearly, in ghosting, then the forgiveness really does all come back to you because you're forgiving somebody else who's already walked out of your life and doesn't want to have anything to do with you. So they're not going to know or care if you do or not, and so it's the place where do you feel you no longer want to put any more energy here, where do you not want to keep your heart tied in that, and part of us being human is that we don't always do it as quickly as we can.

Dr. Heather Browne: 9:32

Sometimes I'll put myself in this category we let ourselves stay feeling sorry for ourselves or stay feeling disappointed, and we know we could let go, but we choose to not. For whatever reason. We want to hold on to that place a little bit longer and if that's where you are recognizing that's important, and then eventually you're going to say I don't want to feel sorry for myself anymore, I'm tired of this, or what I'll hear a lot of times from people is I don't want to be thinking about this guy anymore, awesome. Then what would you like to be thinking about? And that's when the VR comes. It's not necessarily a week, two weeks, a month. It's when you get to that place where you think I just don't want to even want to be thinking about him anymore. Like it's over, it's done. I've put way too much energy and time in this. I want to do something else in my life. And then there's a release. That happens.

Gretta: 10:29

Yeah, Honor where you're at, Honor your needs. Yes, One of my listeners said forgiveness is so tainted for me. There are some people who I've never forgiven but I don't feel angry at anymore. How does releasing the feelings and not forgiving compare as an option? Are there other non-forgiveness options and how do they compare? So I guess the question is like how can we find peace when we don't forgive?

Dr. Heather Browne: 10:58

To let yourself have that be okay. That listener said I didn't forgive the person. That listener said I didn't forgive the person, but I let it go and it doesn't bother me anymore Hallelujah. There doesn't necessarily need to be the phrase I forgive you or I forgive that. If you move to the place where it isn't bothering you, it isn't impacting you, then you're free, because, if you think about it, if somebody wrongs you, if somebody hurts you, it is up to you to decide what you do with that. And for some people, they don't want to necessarily go through that process, and, especially if you've been ghosted, it is just for you. And if you want to say, no, I'm not going to forgive that person, I'm going to learn from what happened, I'm going to move on. If you're clean, energetically with it, you don't have to have said those words. We put this pressure upon ourselves that you must. But who says that? Who says that? And if it doesn't serve you, then why? Because the benefit is for it to free you to move to a different place. There is a different feeling, though, between I have forgiven and I'm just moving on. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm saying they are different and so you want to check with yourself of which one feels right for you for this particular situation.

Dr. Heather Browne: 12:29

Sometimes, if someone has, let's say, they've been a hurtful person throughout the relationship and then they ghost you, you might not ever want to forgive them because they were kind of a jerk all along. You might want to just say it's over, it's over, I'm like done with this person torturing me. You might not get to the place where you want to say I forgive them or forgive myself. That's okay. If it is causing you a challenge, if it's causing you frustration, if you're feeling badly upon yourself in this situation, then that's a place to explore.

Dr. Heather Browne: 13:07

Why am I feeling this way? Why am I beating myself up for this? I'm trying to help myself feel better after a really bad situation when this person didn't care for me enough or didn't love me enough or didn't tell me they were stepping out. I'm already dealing with all of that gunk. Why am I beating myself up in the midst of this gunk? I need to be loving me. I need to be showing up for me as I need to show up for me.

Dr. Heather Browne: 13:35

This person didn't. So when we tell ourself oh, you shouldn't do that, you got to move. Here we're encouraging the person to let go of honoring and owning themselves when they need to to be healthy. The other person like walked out, so you need to not walk out on yourself, and you'll know. It's one of those things that people say and you kind of go, oh, but it's true, you know, when you fall in love, you know you're in the place where you really do feel like yeah, yeah, it's time, great, then honor that. But my belief is take care of you in the way that allows you to be lightest, freest, cleanest, full of love, full of hope, full of as much as you can a positive experience of where you are right now.

Gretta: 14:39

I love that and I have had a lot of listeners say things like I feel stupid for trusting my ghost. I should have been more careful, I should have known, and I found it a lot harder to forgive myself than I did letting go of him.

Dr. Heather Browne: 14:57

So I'm so glad you brought this up, because this is a place that a lot of people struggle, a place that a lot of people struggle when someone has mistreated us. We then beat ourself up that we should have known. Now maybe there are times where someone has done something you know 50 times and it's kind of silly to think on the 51st they won't. But most times it's because the person that you were with chooses poorly, doesn't come through, is hurtful. Please don't blame yourself for another person's actions. They could have been amazing. This happens a lot with infidelity and the person will say, okay, like I'll stay in. I believe you can love me better. I think you've really learned. I don't think you'll do this again. And then, if the person does, the person comes to me devastated and I said, oh, we are not going to beat you up for this. That's your partner. Your partner chose to cheat on you. Your partner chose to be the one who lies. They could have also honored you, blessed you, come to an incredible place of deep love and be so grateful for your unconditional love and instead guess what? But that's not on you. So if someone wrongs you, please don't beat yourself up. It's always the other person's responsibility with the choices that they make. And someone can do something 50 times and then on 51, not do it again. I could be a smoker every day of my life till yesterday, and then today I could say I'm not a smoker and I could never smoke again and I'd be successful. But you're never responsible for another person's choice or action and what they do, that's on them, and I think we do that to kind of justify that we were involved and then we need to find some way to release the other person from their responsibility and that's not healthy for you. That's not healthy for you If anything. You just need to love yourself even more.

Dr. Heather Browne: 17:08

Damn, I trusted you again. Oh, you did it again. You told me you would never disappear and take me off of social media and block me and guess what? You did it again. And when that thought creeps in, the most important thing you can say is no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am amazing, like I am amazing. I allowed you to have the opportunity to actually stay and be present and to love me, and I chose to continue to love you, even though you had done this before. I'm out. I'm out. I don't need to keep putting myself in this place because you're showing me that, even when I'm willing to forgive you and stay, that you're going to abuse, that you may not have my love because it's way more precious than you're recognizing. It's not on you. Please don't feel silly for loving someone else. Please don't feel silly for believing in someone else and when their colors show you to not, then be clean with that, with yourself those are really powerful words.

Gretta: 18:27

Thank you for that and for the reframe. I am amazing." Listeners. You are amazing, and this just reminds me of how a lot of people are embarrassed when they're ghosted. Can you speak to that?

Dr. Heather Browne: 18:40

Yeah, but you're not the person who did it. A lot with infidelity and there's so much shame and guilt and personal responsibility and I just say you are the person who doesn't hurt the other person. You are the person who doesn't walk out. You are the person who doesn't cheat Like. You get to wear your crown. You're incredible. So when you've been ghosted, you're the person who was willing to love longer. You were the person who was willing to try harder. You were the person who was willing to love longer. You were the person who was willing to try harder. You were the person who was willing to work through the situations. You are the amazing one. You didn't step out. You are the amazing one, and the other person didn't recognize that and so they're gone. But it's very important for you to recognize that I didn't walk out. I didn't block you. I still had more love to give you. I was still offering you more love and that's where your closure is.

Dr. Heather Browne: 19:42

People will say a lot, especially with ghosting. I didn't get my closure. Let me help you with this a little bit. You did, you did, you did. They're not willing to come to you when there's a challenge. There's your closure. They're not willing to care about your feelings. There's your closure. They're not willing to be honest. There's your closure. They're not willing to care and work on the relationship there's your closure. They're clearly not your person and they're not choosing you, so they definitely aren't your person. That says nothing about you. You stayed, you believed, you hoped, you tried. You didn't give up. You believed, you hoped, you tried, you didn't give up. Feels crappy right now, but you are not the one in any way to belittle yourself or put yourself down. For that. It's important to recognize wow, I never gave up. I never gave up. This relationship isn't over because of my choice. There was more love that I had to give.

Gretta: 20:54

I'm basically clapping!

Dr. Heather Browne: 20:56

So now I'm going to give all that love to me because you don't get it anymore. I had a person who their partner ghosted them. I had a person who their partner ghosted them, a lot of reasons why and what went on, and a lot of challenges came back. They took them back and then guess what? And she came to me at the guess what stage and I said to her no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Dr. Heather Browne: 21:27

But there is a place to look at.

Dr. Heather Browne: 21:28

If someone has ghosted you and then they return, you want to have some deep conversations of what do you need next time to not go to that place, because it's so unhealthy for me and it's so unhealthy for our relationship and it's so unhealthy for our relationship. How can you have some space without going to a full ghosting? And if they don't come up with super actionable steps like I'll tell you and I might need to go dark for a day, or I'll tell you I don't wanna talk and I just wanna be quiet, and then I'll tell you about my feelings later, if they go to the place of like no, I hope it doesn't happen. That's not enough. There's something inside of that person that they're not able to deal with their stress well and they reject you. And so if you do step back in and it's not that uncommon that they come back when you do step back in if you do be sure that you've got a different game plan of how do you work through challenges and issues so that you're hopefully not in that place again ghosted.

Gretta: 22:44

It's important to share what's going on with somebody who can listen with an empathetic ear and provide compassionate support. I can't even begin to tell you the amount of times where, after being ghosted, I'd go to a friend or a family member and I know they meant well, but they would say things like just move on or just get over it, or this happens to everyone, just accept it. And for me it was not that easy, because being ghosted was one of the most devastating things that happened to me. I was in a lot of pain in my mind and in my body. Going to therapy really changed all that around. My therapist helped me move toward a more secure attachment style. She helped me with my self-esteem and learn how to cope with all the anxiety that I was experiencing in relationships and even outside of relationships after being ghosted, because it really did hurt me. Being in therapy was like one of the most healing things that I did and I seriously love therapy. So that's why I'm excited to tell you about today's sponsor, betterhelp.

Gretta: 23:54

Betterhelp connects you with a licensed therapist who is trained to listen and give you helpful, unbiased advice. First you go to their site. You can use my link betterhelpcom slash coping with ghosting. You answer a few questions and BetterHelp will match you to a professional who has years of experience helping people with struggles similar to yours. You can do it all from your phone or computer, via phone call, video chat or messaging however you feel the most comfortable, and really it's the easiest way possible to start talking to a therapist. You'll be matched to a therapist, usually within 48 hours, so you can get started fast. Let Better Help connect you to a therapist who can support you all from the comfort of your own home. Visit betterhelpcom. Slash coping with ghosting that's better. H E L P. Or choose coping with ghosting that's better H-E-L-P. Or choose coping with ghosting during. Sign up and enjoy a discount on your first month. Thank you, betterhelp, for sponsoring my podcast. Yeah, I've definitely let a ghost back into my life and then then they reghosted and I'm so done. Yeah, well.

Dr. Heather Browne: 25:11

I hope so. They don't know how to do. I'm not going to say they don't know how to do it because they they could, but they're not choosing to do it differently than that. So if they step back in, you've got to have that discussion. Yeah, like, not like. Let's hope it doesn't happen again. No but what are we really going to do if you start to get angry, if you start to get anxious, if you start to feel overwhelmed? I love that.

Gretta: 25:41

It's such a sticky situation and I have an episode about the return of your ghost with Dr Natalie Jones. It was one of my first episodes and we talk about that and it's still like I want to come back and do a whole other episode on it, because this is one of the biggest questions I get asked is like what do I do when they return?

Dr. Heather Browne: 26:01

So personal and I'm not a person to be an absoluter, so I can't say you don't ever take them back. But I do know this there need to be some really important conversations before you do. So many of us hear what we want to hear and then we jump back in, but you actually need to see actionable steps. If I tell you that I'm not going to ghost you next time, but I haven't figured out any other way to stay, I'm probably going to ghost you next time, but I haven't figured out any other way to stay, I'm probably going to ghost you next time. I need to be able to say like I'm overwhelmed, I'm getting scared, I don't want to run. I need to have things that I can do or say to clue you in before I get too far out.

Dr. Heather Browne: 26:45

Something I do, though, with my clients and it would absolutely help somebody who has been ghosted and then comes back is every single day. I have them say to their partner is there any place that I didn't show up for you today, or is there any place that I missed you or something today, because I really don't want to? And then talk that through and then say and where did you feel the closest, the safest, the most connected with me. And can we go even a little deeper right now?

Dr. Heather Browne: 27:21

A lot of times couples don't speak into in a positive way where things have missed or where things have gone awry, and it's really important to try to turn it into a more compassionate, loving experience of gosh. I want to come through better for you. Help me do so instead of it being an argument or a fight. But if every single day, you're speaking into kind of what do we need to clean up, how do I connect with you more and how do I love you better, you're not going to be ghosted. Most likely. That's a great exercise and there's something for the individual about their overwhelm that they need to figure out. Yeah, yeah, and you probably want to read a book on avoidant attachment, because most boasters have a huge problem with having an unavoidant attachment.

Gretta: 28:15

Yeah, and I have an episode on attachment as well featuring Rose. Vigiano. So really in hand, all right, let's get into the nitty gritty of forgiveness. Okay, so for people who do want to forgive their ghost, how can they do it, like, how does that work? Is there a process? Are there steps? How long does it take?

Dr. Heather Browne: 28:45

Well, once again, it's going to be an individualized, but I would have the person ask themselves is there some sort of ritual, is there some sort of experience that I want to go through? And I'll give you one. In my early years of personal therapy, I realized that I had always wanted my dad to be someone. He wasn't my dad, he's passed over, but he lived through the depression, he lived through World War II, he had TB and was in a sanitarium for three years, and so there were some places where he just hadn't really learned to be in relationship really well, and so, though he tried in some ways very hard, he also wasn't very good in a lot of ways, and so he didn't show up as the dad I wanted. And so I had in my head my dream dad, and when I was in therapy, I realized I have to have a funeral. I said I remember I went to my therapist and I said I have to have a funeral for my father, and he said oh my God, heather, I'm so sorry. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, not my dad, he's still alive, my father. And he said what do you mean? And I said he's a fantasy and I need to have a funeral for him. So I went to the beach and I wrote a love letter, told him how much I loved him and how loved I felt by him and how much I was going to miss him, and made a little sandcastle and let it crash on the waves.

Dr. Heather Browne: 30:23

But doing that, because it was an actual, physical, concrete experience, took it out of that mental state and this is something, when you've been ghosted, that I think is very helpful. Give yourself some sort of physicality of the letting go, of the forgiveness, be it a funeral, be it burning a ladder, be it cutting up their pictures, be it sending a balloon into the sky, be it jumping off a pier, but give yourself something that energy-wise, shifts it for you, some sort of releasing letting go of purging, freeing, exploding, burning, burning, freeing, exploding, burning. You want to feel like there's a break in that tie that you have. That's within your heart, that's within your mind, and I find that having that be it writing a letter and burning it, writing a letter and putting it in the mail with no address, flushing it down the toilet, cutting it up Things that have a releasing feel, really, really help versus just okay.

Dr. Heather Browne: 31:36

So I'm just going to not think these thoughts anymore. It doesn't seem to be quite complete and I think it feeds into the aspect of ghosting, because ghosting is we're together and now I don't know where the hell you are and what happened. It is like a death. And so to me, there's a place of having that little memorial funeral ceremony, whatever it is, to basically say your goodbye that you didn't get to say, that you're now going to give to yourself. I am now going to say, because you didn't show up for me to say goodbye to the relationship, I'm now going to show up for myself to say goodbye to the relationship in whatever way you want to do it. It could be having a cake, a celebrating cake, if you wanted, but something that says this is now done.

Gretta: 32:31

That's great advice. I love that. I definitely always say to listeners to write a letter to their ghost and not send it just to rip it up, but get all the rage onto the page and be as colorful as you want with it. I also think it could be. You know, get your friends involved. Don't do this alone.

Dr. Heather Browne: 32:52

Yeah, absolutely, and if that honors you do it, especially if they've known the person or they've walked through the process with you quite a bit you know, and they might be there either just to celebrate you in this experience of what you're doing, or they might be part of it with you, and that would be up to you to decide. Ask yourself how do I want to feel supported in this? Because you weren't by your partner or person. So how do I want to feel supported in this? And then that's going to guide. If you want the people to actually be involved with you, just know that you're doing it, actually celebrate it with you, or you might say, no, this is for me to do on my own Right.

Dr. Heather Browne: 33:36

And whatever is best for you is beautiful, but there needs to be a releasing, and I think that just our body can recognize it better when there's something that you feel and see or hear, versus just it's a choice.

Gretta: 33:57

Yeah, that's great. Many mental health professionals consider ghosting to be an abusive behavior, and I've heard some say that it's true that this is abuse even if it happens after a date or two dates, and I'm wondering if you agree with that, because a lot of people say that there's always this pressure on victims to forgive. So I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about like ghosting and abuse.

Dr. Heather Browne: 34:26

Well, to me abuse is a strong word, so I'm careful with it. To me, ghosting doesn't occur unless there was an agreement that there was to be more. So if I've gone on two dates with you and you haven't said I'll call you tomorrow, I'll text you tomorrow or I'll go out with you again, if I left it like that was fun, Heather has the belief that you let somebody know if you're done, but that doesn't mean the other person does, and if they choose to not step back in or say anything, that's on them. To me, ghosting is when you have an agreement that more is to come and that person just doesn't show up and then you try to connect with them and there's no response. There's some people where you've had a date or two.

Dr. Heather Browne: 35:21

Maybe this is more on men's side. I think it is, but probably because they're the ones that normally ask, but they don't want you to feel badly that they're not choosing you. So their thought is if I just don't say anything, I don't have to tell you why. And I think this comes out of women with anxious attachment. And what will happen sometimes when somebody says, like I've had a really good time, you're a lovely person, but I'm just not feeling it. There's a lot of people who don't hear that and they say, well, what's wrong with me? Or what can I do? Or no, no, no, no, give me another chance. Or like I didn't, like we didn't have sex. Do we need to have sex? I'll have sex. It opens up this chasm of I'm not going to respect what you said and I'm now going to pursue you. I think sometimes that's why ghosting sometimes happens early on in the way we look at ghosting, because they don't want to deal with that. Like I've had two dates, I don't owe you anything, I don't have to text you, I don't have to call you, I don't have to tell you I'm done, I can just simply walk away and I don't consider that abusive. I think it would be nice for the person to say, hey, I'm out and I don't really want to talk about it.

Dr. Heather Browne: 36:42

To me, abusive is with an intention to harm or hurt. That's very different than someone is just not caring about your feelings. If you've been in a relationship for many months and the person all of a sudden completely stops you, yeah, I think that is abusive. I do, but a couple of dates I don't. I think it's disrespectful. But abuse is with an intention to hurt you or a complete disregard to the fact that it will hurt you.

Dr. Heather Browne: 37:25

People use the word abandoned quickly, abandoned quickly, and it's unfortunate because when we say the word in our gut it goes very, very deep, like abuse does too. Disrespectful is different than abusive. Not wanting to be in a relationship with you is different than abandonment, and so even ghosting well, ghosting and abandonment are similar. There's a lot of layover of that, but I'm careful with the word abuse my person who let her ghost come back in. They were then in a relationship for six months and then he did it again, and in my head that was abusive. He knew it would hurt her, he knew it would devastate her. He knew, because he heard about what happened the first time, that that was going to cause her an incredible amount of harm, and he did it anyway. That, to me, is abusive.

Gretta: 38:37

I agree, I don't think it's abuse when somebody just disappears after two dates when they didn't say they wanted to see you again. I mean it's unfortunate. I wish they could be mature about it and say something kind like hey, I'm not really interested, I didn't feel the connection. I need to move forward. And if both people are silent after the date, well it is what it is, and a lot of people will say that.

Dr. Heather Browne: 39:03

A lot of people say like I'm just not going to text anymore or call and they'll get the idea. And because I'm a therapist in my gut, I go ew, no, just tell the poor person. So they're not looking. Did they text Shoot? Did they text Shoot? Well, they're busy at work between Monday and Friday so I probably won't hear from them, but I'll hear over the weekend. Did they text? No, I think it's much kinder just to tell the person. But there's a lot of belief of if I just don't reach out to you again, you're eventually going to get the point.

Gretta: 39:32

Right. I've heard a lot of women specifically say I don't want to reach out and reject this person because I feel that they'll say something nasty to me. That happens a lot, actually, on dating apps, where, well, in my experience too, where I've been called names for actually just telling this person hey, you know, thanks for the date, it was wonderful, but I don't see it moving forward or whatever something nice. But then they say something like oh, you're an evil wretch.

Dr. Heather Browne: 40:01

Well, to me that would be confirmation that this is not a person that I want to spend time with. Yeah, if you can't respect the fact that I might not want to pursue something, can't respect the fact that I might not want to pursue something. We're really not matched up. And there's a very odd response that, simply because I don't choose to go out with you, that that makes me a horrible person, because doesn't the other person have the right to say I don't want to go out with you and that doesn't make them horrible? That means you're not the right person for them. But to me that would be a red flag of wow. This person has some entitlement issues and has some challenges with respecting me, so if someone were to say that to me, for me that would be confirmation of wow. Really dodged a bullet with this one Exactly. Yeah, I had somebody get really angry with me that I wouldn't go on the second date with them.

Dr. Heather Browne: 41:04

I had an interesting experience with a gentleman that we were of different religious beliefs and he had a hard time with it and he kept talking about it and they kept talking about that. We were of different religious beliefs and he had a hard time with it and he kept talking about it and they kept talking about it. They kept talking about it and it just it wasn't comfortable and it was too much of a focus of the date. And then, when I didn't want to go out with him again, he made it that and I said it actually wasn't. It was that you had such a huge problem with it that I don't want that to be the whole focus, like you're telling me, this is a huge issue. So now it is. So if someone is hurtful or disrespectful versus just bummed and some people get desperate because they take it not, as you know, I got to have an opportunity to meet you. I wish we could have had more. You seem like a lovely person. I'm sorry you feel this way, but they take it as a personal affront that you somehow are saying I am not a good person or I am not attractive or there's something really, really wrong with me because I didn't choose you.

Dr. Heather Browne: 42:16

I was in a relationship with a lovely man for eight months but I 100% didn't fall in love and I kept trying to make it work. We had some very different differences in how we lived our life. So we could date well, we could weekend. Well, but doing life was going to be hard. He was very, very OCD and there were rules about how many slices a mushroom needed to have and I thought, oh my gosh, this is going to drive me to the wall. So I just knew we couldn't do life together. And when I stepped away listeners, I did not ghost.

Dr. Heather Browne: 42:51

I had a five-hour goodbye conversation with him and we cried through the whole thing and the whole experience. He said to me he said, please just tell me what it is that I need to fix. Whatever it is, I will. And I said to him there's nothing, there's nothing. You are wonderful.

Dr. Heather Browne: 43:12

This just isn't right for me. This isn't really about you not being right. It's about me not being in the place to be able to love you in the way that you are to be loved For me. I'm not able to accept you in the way that I need to accept you. I can't walk life in the way that you want to walk life. This isn't about you not being enough. This is about me struggling with that. But I'm going to honor that.

Dr. Heather Browne: 43:46

And it was a beautiful conversation. But that takes somebody who's allowing themselves to be who they are and not beat themselves up for it. Yeah, I could have said, heather, just be more loving, just be more accepting, just, you know, be a better person here. And I thought it's too hard for me. It's too hard to not get frustrated that the milk has to be a certain temperature to go in the coffee, like I'm. Just, I'm irritated by all of this and I'm sorry that I am, but I am.

Dr. Heather Browne: 44:20

Yeah, anybody who wants to hurt you. There's no reason to ever hurt another person, except if it's in self-defense. There's no reason to. And so, though, we do, and that is because we're hurting. Somebody hurts because they're hurting and they want more love, and they don't know how to get it. And so sometimes, instead of asking for love, they'll be cruel or mean or hurtful back. But in any situation, I believe, in this world where there's any kind of problem, there needs to be more love for me, for you, for the situation, and so if someone is hurtful to you, they simply don't have enough love within them and they certainly don't know how to give it to you. And so, in that situation, you really want to take care of yourself.

Dr. Heather Browne: 45:16

Ghosting too. You really want to love on yourself if you've been ghosted because it feels awful. It feels awful, but it's not that you're not beautiful. It's not that you're not important. It's not that you're not valuable. It's that that person doesn't see you. They don't want all of you and that hurts, but it's also really important to look at. They don't want all of you. That relationship's not going to go well for you if they don't want all of you.

Gretta: 45:47

Yeah, it's so hard to accept sometimes, but it's the truth, yeah.

Dr. Heather Browne: 45:53

None of us like being rejected we don't but it's better for that to happen than to stay with someone who's not going to love you well.

Gretta: 46:05

Yeah, Is there anything else you'd like to share about forgiveness, ghosting or being ghosted?

Dr. Heather Browne: 46:15

As much as possible.

Dr. Heather Browne: 46:21

Try to make it not because of you and turn it into what do I now need to do for me?

Dr. Heather Browne: 46:28

Need to do for me Because we get caught in the why did this happen to me and why is it only me, and why don't people love me the way I want to be loved, and we do a lot of self-flagellation in that, instead of saying, oh, baby girl, oh no, if you think about yourself like a little girl or a little boy that's just been hurt, if you had a really loving, devoted mom, they would just whisk you up in your arms and say I'm so sorry you're hurting, let me love you, let me kiss every little boo-boo.

Dr. Heather Browne: 47:04

I wish this hadn't happened to you and you're just smothered in love. But when we go through that, we tend to not, and so my last thought for your listeners would be be aware of that and look into how much am I loving myself and where do I not very well, and can I change that for me? Can I really try to take good care of me and help myself, instead of being another part of beating myself up or putting myself down or saying I should or I have to, or so-and-so tells me I must. It's really important that you allow yourself to honor like where your heart is.

Dr. Heather Browne: 47:55

And just because your heart isn't there today doesn't mean it won't be like this super smooshy, lovey, ooshy-gooshy heart tomorrow. But today it's maybe just not, and it's important to let that be okay. We're only where we are because that's as far as we've been able to go, and so when we say, well, I shouldn't be here, then you're missing the piece of no, I need to be here, but I'm not going to be here always. It's like in grief it changes, it hurts, but it keeps changing as you walk through the process of it and there can be a lot of pressure to not be where you are. But you need to be where you are so you can then move.

Dr. Heather Browne: 48:42

And when we tell ourselves, no, I shouldn't be there, and we try to jump, it doesn't work that well because we know like I am still pissed off at you, I don't want to have sex with you or whatever, like I don't really want to see your face because I'm scared you're going to hurt me again. If you haven't given yourself to really walk through what you need to walk through, it comes back to bite you. So really ask yourself like am I loving me through this? Am I caring for me through this? Am I nurturing me? Through this? Am I caring for me? Through this, am I nurturing myself? Through this, am I helping myself be the person that I want to be, regardless of what this other person thought or didn't think? Do I love me?

Gretta: 49:25

Yeah, don't ghost yourself.

Dr. Heather Browne: 49:29

Yeah, what a great comment. Don't ghost yourself. Yeah, what a great comment. Don't ghost yourself. Yeah, we need us badly. You're the only person who's going to be in your life always. You're going to have more conversations with yourself than anybody else that you'll ever have. You are the person who knows how to love you better than anybody else, and so you don't want to ghost yourself on that, because you are your most precious person, and when you really let yourself be that, then you've got like an unlimited amount of love to give to others. But if you're not giving it to yourself, you're not as free giving it to others, because it feels like there's a limited supply, because you're not getting enough. And when you're filling yourself up, there is no limited supply, there's just more and more and more and more and more.

Gretta: 50:20

So important, such a good way to end that. Thank you, you're so welcome, love. How can listeners connect with you and read your new book?

Dr. Heather Browne: 50:33

So the easiest place to find me is my website, and it is wwwd-r-h-e-a-t-h-e-r-b-r-o-w-n-ecom, and my tabx is on there. My book is on there connecting with me for coaching or psychotherapy. I've got freebies, so take a look. Listeners, feel free to reach out If you have any questions. I'm always happy to entertain to see if there's something I can answer for people if they've got a question about something, but I love to hear back.

Gretta: 51:05

Yes, and I'll put links to all of that in the show notes too. Thank you, yes. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Heather Browne: 51:13

Thank you for what you're doing. It's really important and ghosting isn't something that is really talked about that much and we need resources to know how to deal with it when it happens. So I really honor you and thank you for showing up in this place. That was kind of ghostly and now you're here to help with it.

Gretta: 51:34

Thank you for saying that, that's so kind. Thank you and listeners, I encourage you to become part of my vibrant Coping with Ghosting community. Follow @ Coping withg hosting on social media. Join the free and private Coping with Ghosting Facebook support group and share this podcast with anyone you know who's been ghosted, and I'd really appreciate it if you could please leave a rating and review for the show. Your feedback helps spread a message of hope and finally, be sure to remember when you're ghosted, you have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills. You deserve the best.