Coping with Ghosting

Ghosting in the Professional World With Angie M. Callen, CPRW, CPCC

• Gretta • Season 1 • Episode 41

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Have you been ghosted during the job application process? Have you been iced out by somebody you work with or who works for you? Are your sales prospects ignoring you? In this episode, Gretta interviews her business coach, Angie M. Callen, CPRW, CPCC, to get her take on coping with ghosting in the professional world.

Connect With Angie:

No More Mondays Podcast

Career Benders

LinkedIn

Connect with Gretta:

Take Your Power Back Workshop

Free Guide: What to Say To Your Ghost

Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah

Disclaimer:  This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or other registered professionals. 

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Note to All Listeners: Ghosting is defined as: The practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication (Oxford Languages). When you leave an abusive situation without saying "goodbye," it's not ghosting, it's "self-protection." When you quietly exit a relationship after a boundary has been violated, it's not ghosting, it's "self-respect."

Gretta:

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing, and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted. I'm Gretta, and this episode is for people who have been ghosted in the professional world. Maybe your coworker is giving you the cold shoulder, your sales prospects don't respond to your emails or you submitted resumes that have been completely ignored. I'm discussing all of these scenarios and more with today's guest, Angie M. Callan. Angie is a Forbes featured career and business coach who was recently awarded her second gold coach award, where she received global recognition as the top career coach. She's also the host of No More Mondays podcast, where I've been featured as a guest, and she gets just as fired up as I do when talking about ghosting in the professional world. Angie is also my incredible business coach. I'm so happy to have you here.

Angie:

Thank you. I feel like this conversation has been long coming and is very appropriately timed. I didn't know if you were gonna let everybody in on how well I've seen behind the scenes of coping with ghosting, but I am super excited to be here. And I am really excited to kind of come on board with you and talk about how important this topic is in the professional world because it like in so many other places in our life, it is that silent epidemic is trickling over into corporate America for sure.

Gretta:

Absolutely. I just I have so many questions for you. Okay. So during the pandemic and the quarantine, I was furloughed from my job and I was really concerned that I wouldn't get it back. So I submitted my resume to just tons of companies, Angie's, probably like a hundred. And despite all my hard work and all the effort I put into cover letters and the resumes, you know, perfectly crafted for each job, I only heard back from a handful of companies. And I mean, I didn't have a relationship with any of the companies that I applied to. They didn't owe me anything really, but I did work my face off. And it would have been polite, it would have felt good to have been acknowledged. You know, everybody wants to be seen and heard. And so, what are your thoughts on this type of micro ghosting behavior?

Speaker 1:

Oh, micro ghosting. I'm gonna swipe that. And when you ask me for what are my thoughts on this, how long do we have? Because I'm I'm gonna be on a soapbox about this because to me, it's completely ridiculous, first of all. It's unprofessional. Ghosting has become part of corporate American culture. And it's kind of a little bit sick in my head. And I have lots of like sayings and kind of known from my dad jokes, and a few of them that apply to exactly what you just said is that I talk to a lot of people who are frustrated by going into that black hole. And one of the things I'll tell them is that if there is one certainty in job searching, you will be ghosted. You will hear nothing more than you hear anything. And that's even now spilled over into interview processes where you had gave your time to a company and they can't even show the respect to come back and give you an answer. And so it's one of those things where it's really not about you, but to you, it's about you. And it feels very personal. And I just find it so ridiculous and ironic that in the day of automation and AI and all of the things that we can't find a way to send a freaking thank you for applying, but you're not moving forward email to every single applicant. Exactly. I actually, funny story on that. I had somebody email me the other day who I worked with like a year and a half ago, and she was like, Angie, I just got this rejection from this company. I couldn't figure out what the heck it was that I applied to. So I went and looked, and it was a rejection from something I applied to in April of 2022. What? Can we let's just throw the ghosting in your face a little bit more?

Gretta:

Whoa, that's wild.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the system is broken. And my whole feeling, specifically in ghosting as it pertains to hiring, its existence in a lot of the other places in the professional corporate world. But specifically, I feel like we have dehumanized human resources, and that is now perpetuated ghosting, especially in the hiring process.

Gretta:

Dehumanized human resources. Wow. Can you tell me more about that?

Speaker 1:

Yes. Here's the thing about it is I definitely have empathy for us as candidates. Yes. Uh, in having been one, in supporting them. But I also, as a business owner, do understand the business case for something like the ATS we hear so much about, applicant tracking systems, translation, the abyss your resume goes into whenever you apply to something. And when I say I understand the business case for that, we are now in a world where online job boards have become very prevalent, albeit they are not the primary method of which people hire. Fun fact. Stick a pin in that one for a statistic later, if anyone wants it. But because they have become such an easy way for candidates to conduct job searches, the applicant pools are large. And so that now puts the companies in a position of filtering and sifting through that, which is kind of onerous in a manual basis. And in comes these technology systems to enable things. And we tech is great. It enables things, but can also go too far. And in this regard, it has gone too far in that you can be a perfectly amazing candidate who is 110% qualified for a role, a great culture fit, a unicorn by anybody else's standards, and you will get plucked out of the system and thrown into the dark side simply because you didn't follow a fundamental formatting rule of engagement in your resume. How bleeped up is that?

Gretta:

That's bleeped up. Yeah. Well, how as a job seeker can you encourage companies to get back to you without pestering them?

Speaker 1:

First off, one thing I would really encourage everybody to focus on, and this isn't a direct answer to the question, but it builds a foundation that I think is essential in order to being able to do what I'm going to recommend you do as the answer to the question. Got it. And that is that having a focused job search strategy that entails more than just applying online is exactly one way to do that because we need to bring humans into our process, right? That's how you circumnavigate some of this stuff. And in having a focused strategy, it may mean that your quantity of applications come down. And while that may seem counterintuitive, you know, more is more. We all know that less can be more. And sometimes having a little bit more focus helps you be a little bit more intentional and have a little higher of a quality or higher impact job search. And in doing so, you're able to spend a little bit more time humanizing it. And what I mean by that is you are able to attempt to find or hopefully actually find a human associated with a job posting so that you can proactively say, hey, I just applied for this role. I can't wait to talk to you about it so that they get an impression, right? It's marketing impressions. And then you're also not shooting so much, you know what, at the wall, or like I like to say, getting trigger happy on the apply button that you can't keep track of what you're applying to, because then if you are, you have the ability to follow up. I actually wrote something about this just in the last few weeks and did some research that I wasn't even thinking about talking about today, but it's perfect. It comes into play. I read about a poll that some, yeah, I don't know, online source did hiring managers and recruiters. And there were like several hundred recruiters in this poll. And every single one of them, every single one of them said job seekers should follow up on applications. I was actually surprised at that outcome. And their recommendation, and I agree, is if you've applied and you haven't heard anything for two weeks, you go find a recruiter, a human resources professional, or a talent acquisition coordinator at the company of interest. LinkedIn's a great tool there, to follow up and say, you know, hey, and be a nice human. Don't try to resell it in a LinkedIn message or in an email or in a phone call and send your resume and get around it, but you just impressions and you say, Hey, you know, I applied online a few weeks ago, would love to just see how the hiring process is going. Excited to potentially talk to you. Right. So you create that impression. And generally, if you do that twice at the two-week mark and then maybe the four-week mark and hear nothing, move on.

Gretta:

Got it. That's great. And this is such a big problem, right? So, what's your advice for the people who are really struggling and down and out and feeling ignored in their job search?

Speaker 1:

And this is a real problem. I think that this is equally as detrimental to mental health and emotional well-being and confidence as if this is the relationship side of ghosting. It is equal. Everybody I talk to is really struggling with confidence in their professional and career lives, largely because we can't get feedback, right? It being in your own echo chamber is exhausting after a little while. And so my recommendation there is remember this isn't about you. And while it feels about you, it feels deeply personal. They're not rejecting you. Yes, you are what's on that paper. However, for the most part, this is either a database who is not favorably parsing the data on a piece of paper, or it is a human scanning a resume in six seconds who has decided to take other candidates over you. Usually ghosting in the hiring process, even though it blows, is not about you. And I think you just have to remember that. And one of the things I always tell my clients is not to get overly invested in any single opportunity, at least too early, or actually even until that offer's there and the ink dries, because it helps you stay just a little bit distant emotionally from getting too vested in something that may never come to fruition. And it creates a little bit more of a balanced emotional state to go through a process that is taking on average five months right now.

Gretta:

That's great advice. On the flip side of all of this, employers have to deal with employees and job prospects ghosting. I mean, I've heard of not showing up for interviews, not showing up on the first day, quitting without any notice. Do you have any ghost busting advice for employers who are experiencing this?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do. And one is that you need to look internally because if these types of things are happening, it probably is about you. And especially if people are quitting on the first day or quitting without notice, probably more so if they're quitting without notice, there's something happening for and that's happening frequently. One off, okay, you hired a bad fit, which may mean look at your hiring processes, right? But if you are seeing consistent attrition, even with notice, especially up in quits, there's something happen internally that you need to address. And I would say the same thing goes for if you are seeing attrition in your hiring processes where people are leaving interview processes frequently or accept an offer and then say, never mind, and don't actually start or quit on day one. There's something in your hiring process that's likely broken. Either you're not working very hard to find good culture fits, you don't know what a good culture fit is, or your salary isn't up to snuff and people are just using this opportunity to bridge a gap.

Gretta:

Yeah, exactly. I'd like to discuss what to do about colleagues who ghosts. And the reason why is because about 10 years ago, I was in this really short-lived retail job and I had a mean coworker. She would ignore me completely in the break room. Like Angie, she wouldn't even look at me. She wouldn't speak to me. It was so hurtful to say the very least. And I'm not the only one going through this because I coach people who are going through this as well. They have to go to work and see their cruel ghost every day. And the ghost refuses to acknowledge their existence. So I'm just wondering what your advice is for people who are in this type of situation.

Speaker 1:

We were just talking about culture. And I almost said, I think what I'm about to say, and now I'm glad it's coming up in this context. But in the culture of the professional world is broken, and I would say that probably even rolls up to just societal culture, but I have a feeling that's a totally different podcast because it's definitely a different soapbox. But I feel like we have forgotten empathy. Empathy is missing in society and in the workplace today. And because of that, we oftentimes forget that the people around us are also sentient beings, right? We're surrounded by humans who have feelings. And like it blows my mind that in a workplace, you're basically dealing with high school mean girls. Haven't we moved beyond that? And to me, I think a lot of it comes down to we need to be better at communicating and we need to be more comfortable with uncomfortable conversations. And I think that that is the root of ghosting across the board, right? We don't like telling people things that we don't think they want to hear. However, too freaking bad. Right? Sometimes telling somebody something they don't want to hear is it provides the closure that they need and is better than them just wondering, well, what the heck happened after I went through three interviews and got ghosted? Wouldn't it have been nice to just say, even if it's a canned, we moved on with other candidates, at least you have the closure. And so in this specific instance, when we think about communications within within the workplace, I that is where I believe we need to be more comfortable with uncomfortable conversations and bringing these kinds of things to closure. And on both sides of the equation, either being the person with the grudge who is willing to confront and say, here's why I have a grudge, here's why I ignore you, here's why I'm the mean girl. Or if you are the recipient of that toxicity, figuring out how to build the confidence to approach the person and find out why. And if the environment is so toxic that that conversation is not possible to have, then it's time to go seek another environment.

Gretta:

Yeah. I know of a specific case where somebody went and talked to the person per their manager's suggestion, right? He said to his manager, oh, my coworker never ever responds to any of my emails. I always respond to his emails, but he doesn't respond to me. And the manager said, You need to talk to him, and they had a conversation, and yet the ghost continues to ignore. So in this case, the person doesn't feel like going to HR because then he feels like he'd be perceived as the bad guy. What would you recommend for that person?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's a lot of stickiness there. And without knowing a lot of ins and outs, in general, what I'm going to say is that the fear, I would say, or the hesitance to go to HR is real. And I'm just even going to say it's a little validated because unfortunately, human resources has, as we've established, been dehumanized. And part of that is because they are a risk department, not a human resources department, right? Human resources exist to protect the company's best interests, not individuals' interests. And that's sad. And that's where now people, humans in a workplace have become numbers instead of actual capital. And that's where good culture sees their workforce as humans and as people and has found a way to strike a balance in the human resources function to mitigate risk, protect the company's best interest while having empathy and care for their staff. And if you're so if you're in a place where you're fearing or you're hesitant to go to HR because of some sort of backlash or that they're just going to ignore you, that tells you something about this company fit. And I would even say that might be the same thing with, and I don't want this to sound like go run away. That's not what I'm saying. However, if you've taken every measure, even recommended to you, to alleviate a situation and the situation doesn't change, to me, that means the support is not coming from above to make the situation change. And that means you have a crappy leader. And crappy leaders and crappy HR departments are reflective of a culture that is does not care about us as humans. And that's where I would encourage you to make the choice to go find one aligned with your values and needs. Right. Yeah. And so if you've had the conversations, if you'd attempted to fix the problem, you've done everything you could possibly do, right? And that's the frustrating thing. But you also have to, again, know now it's not about you. This other person has an issue and it's probably not you. And guess what? You don't get to give them that. Don't give them that power. Don't give them that energy. No, you've done everything that you can do. And if leaving feels like you're letting them win, then find a way to exist and find the way to make the most of the situation, but take your power back. I love it. Everything you just said.

Gretta:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. That felt a little like a mic drop at the end. I was like, oh, I like where this is going.

Gretta:

Yeah, exactly. Like we're all professionals at work, but we're all humans, right? And we have feelings and emotions. And if you, listener, are being ignored at work, I want you to know that my heart goes out to you. I know how hard this is because I've experienced it. And I know it's confusing and awful. So I do encourage you to listen to some of the other episodes of this podcast. Download the Take Your Power back workshop. That can really help you. Don't try to analyze your ghost, but really just focus on yourself and taking care of yourself and you. You are number one. Shift your energy onto the good things that are going on in your place of work and other business opportunities.

Speaker 1:

I agree with all that. And this is why I do what I do is because there are people that are hurt by work. I truly believe and have experienced career PTSD. Just like any relationship, we can carry this stuff forward with us and you have to break the cycle. What I'll say in this situation is that two things. First of all, if you are being professional in a professional setting, you have done everything you can do to control it. You can't not control the unprofessional person on the other end of this engagement. And that's where I love Gretta's recommendation to go listen to something about taking your power back, because that's essentially what this is, right? It is owning what we can control, owning our part in a two-part or a multi-part scenario and letting go of those that do not serve us or that we cannot control.

Gretta:

Yes. And that's my take your power back workshop. The link will be in the show notes for sure. Go get your copy. So let's talk about sales ghosting, which I also addressed in an earlier show called Special Episode Coping with Ghosting in Business. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. I worked sales jobs before, and I've been in a position where I was certain somebody was going to buy. They said they'd put it Deposit down in the next few days. And then I heard the sound of silence. Angie, why do you think people show so much interest and then seem to fall off the face of the earth? You know how much I love business.

Speaker 1:

So I'm glad that we're talking about that application of it. And I think it comes down to something we mentioned earlier, but I'll go a little deeper into it. And that is that we don't like giving people uncomfortable information. And so I think in a sales process, I mean, think about it. I don't know why. I always go back to like when I was a kid, my dad would get so worked up anytime it was time to go buy a new car, right? Because of just how uncomfortable that sales conversation was going to be. And I think that's a coping mechanism for the potential client or the buyer to just go, oh, this sounds great. Oh, this sounds great. And mask the discomfort, mask the sticker shock, mask the, I'm never going to buy this, so that they don't actually have to have that uncomfortable conversation or say no. We hate to say no. We hate to say no. And I think that's part of the problem because there's nothing wrong with that two-letter word. And actually, in a lot of places in life, I'll tell you, it's a great thing to adopt. But in this situation, people don't want to say thanks, no, thanks. You're not for me. They'd rather say, okay, this sounds great. I'm going to book my first session with you. And then tomorrow they cancel it without ever telling you. They just go to Cowelly and they click cancel so they can passive aggressively get out of the situation because that's more comfortable for them than just saying, this is too expensive. It's out of my budget.

Gretta:

Yeah, I definitely agree. And sometimes people just might forget too, right? Like they had busy lives, things happen, everybody has their own stuff. Something could have happened in their personal life that totally sideswiped their plans to buy. And sometimes these sales ghosts, they come back. So what would you recommend if somebody that you were selling to who disappeared for a while comes back?

Speaker 1:

I'm going to close the gap there because you're 100% right. And we, as the on the sales side of this, of that exchange, do have a role to play in bridging that gap. Because if you are in a position of sales or you're an entrepreneur with a business, you're in sales. Sorry to just let you know that you have to follow up because it takes on average eight touches to convert a sale today. And depending on how that lead funneled into you, you can't necessarily expect that to convert immediately. And that's where follow-up is critical. I've had potential clients come back a year later. And you're 100% right, Gretta. It could be because they were exploring options for a future need for that service or product, or they got really busy. I've had people email me three months later and say, I'm so sorry, I had a major death in the family. And actually, I'll even because we started talking about this in the hiring landscape. The same goes for like a recruiter who's not getting back to you. There are about 89 other things happening every single minute that may be distractions or may just be higher priorities than the position you're being hired for or the service or product that you had to offer that person when they first talked. So you can make the conversation a lot easier if and when they do come back by having stayed in touch with them, nurture that relationship. Funnels are a great way to do that. Automated marketing, they're great tools where like you are not conversing with them directly. You know, there's no conversation happening, but they see you, right? They're getting newsletters, they're seeing social media posts, they're listening to podcasts. So they are actually staying in tune with you without you knowing it. So what seems like a ghost to you is just a delayed buying decision for them.

Gretta:

It's totally right. All really good points. And when the ghost comes back, if they don't have a good excuse, if you are concerned that they're gonna ghost you again, create a contract with them, charge them before they have an appointment with you or before you send them the product or whatever it is. And also send tons of appointment reminders to these people because they have a history of ghosting.

Speaker 1:

And I'll add that too. Like, okay, if it does feel like a legitimate, well, like, hey, you skipped out on like three sessions six months ago, not gonna honor your old contract, right? So you have to be comfortable either saying no or setting boundaries or expectations. Every single coach I work with, I'm like, you need an agreement. You have to have a service agreement, put clear clauses in there about timing of communication. And if you don't hear from them for a certain period of time, what happens? Because they may never read it because no one reads anything anymore. However, it gives you a really easy, well, hey, if you go read that agreement that we signed, it says this. And now you don't have to just come up with that out of thin air. It almost creates a little bit of a comfort fallback for you to make the whole situation not about the two of you, but about this document that was involved. But ultimately, if they are ready to receive your service and you're in a position to give it and you feel like that genuine connection is still there, proceed, but have those controls in place.

Gretta:

Brilliant. I love your advice. Is there anything else that you'd like to share about ghosting from a business standpoint or otherwise?

Speaker 1:

One thing we haven't talked about is I would say ghosting in interviews, right? Because we talked a lot about it at the uh application stage and kind of what to do there. But it is becoming more and more frequent in at the interview stage today, again, because recruiters don't like crafting an email that says, hey, we're not moving forward. And I find there's it's a little more, even more damaging there than when you apply to some like ghost to use a funny term. Like, you know, you're applying to a ghost job online, there's not a lot there. But by the time you've invested time, energy, and conversation in an interview process, now there is more riding on it. You are becoming more invested. And so I would say the same thing that we said before. Continue following up. I am of the belief that you ride the fine line between annoyance and persistence until you get an answer because you deserve it. The fine line between annoyance and persistence can look different in different situations. But if you're in an interview process, I would recommend checking in weekly unless the point of contact has given you a different expectation of a timeline that might be longer. And if they have, you check in at the end of that timeline. And in the interview stage, I usually say three, four follow-ups before you have assumed you've been ghosted. And the reason I do that is because you don't ever want to be the one who is the ghost. The same goes for when recruiters reach out to you on LinkedIn, respond to every single one of them. You don't want to be the thing you hate, and you never know who you may reach out to or when you may want to leverage somebody you ghost in the future. Do you remember, Gretta, a couple months ago, that whole story about the chick who I might get this wrong, but you can tell the rest of it. The chick who ghosted somebody and then she walked into an interview six years later, and he's the hiring manager. She ghosted him during dating, and then she walks in and he's the hiring manager for a job or something ridiculous, right?

Gretta:

Yes, it was a TikTok, and I saw it, and she did a follow-up, and I believe she got the job.

Speaker 1:

No, that's the right moral of the story. But anyway, I mean, hey, good on him for not being not resenting the ghost. So there actually is a good little story there. He might be a gem, but you never know. This is a very small world. You never know when you're gonna come across somebody that you've had other interactions with that may impact what could be a good professional relationship. So don't be the thing you hate.

Gretta:

Agree. Yes, it's a great reminder for all listeners to be really mindful about replying to people and not leaving them hanging.

Speaker 1:

Get comfortable giving people information they don't want to hear. You can do it in a loving and tactful way. You really can.

Gretta:

Absolutely. Angie, how can listeners connect with you?

Speaker 1:

I am really active on LinkedIn at Angie Callen. If you would like to hear more of my never-ending opinions on all things, I do have a podcast called No More Mondays, where we talk a lot about the challenges of the professional world, how people overcome them, people starting businesses, all kinds of good stuff there. And then you can also find my business at careerbenders.com and on social media at careerbenders. Thank you so much. You're an inspiration. Well, thanks, Gretta. I enjoyed this so much, and I'm so glad that I got to come and share a little bit of this with your coping with ghosting family.

Gretta:

Thank you. And finally, listeners, be sure to remember when you're ghosted, you have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills. You deserve the best. Hey listeners, this is Gretta. As you know, my mission is to help people who have been ghosted in every walk of life heal their hearts and minds and feel more peace on a daily basis and not let this take over their lives. So if you want to help me on this mission, I would so appreciate it if you could please leave a five-star review, a written review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Doing so will help more people who have been ghosted discover it. And I think it's so important for all people's mental health to realize that there is hope after, you know, we've been treated so poorly by others. So I really appreciate it. Um, for those of you who have left reviews, thank you so much. Your kind words really mean a lot to me. I hope you have an amazing day, night, morning, wherever it is you're listening to this. I'm sending you so much love, and I just think everybody who listens is so incredible, and you really you deserve the best.