Managing Anxious Thoughts With Joanna Hardis, LISW-S

In this episode, host Gretta interviews Joanna Hardis, a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist who was ghosted by a man she was dating, only to find out later that he had been cheating on her the whole time.

Gretta and Joanna discuss: 

• How to manage overthinking after being ghosted
• Ways to calm an anxious mind
• Tips for dealing with the stress of being ghosted in healthy ways
• The time it takes to truly get to know somebody
• Why you don't need closure from your ghost
• And so much more!

Connect With Joanna:

Joanna's Website

Joanna's Book: Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way

Instagram

Facebook

Connect With Gretta:

Free Guide: What to Say To Your Ghost

Coaching With Gretta

Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com

Magic Mind:
Visit https://www.magicmind.com/ghosting  and use code GHOSTING20 for 20% off for both one-time purchases and subscriptions, and if you buy in the next ten days, you'll get up to 56% off your subscription with code GHOSTING20.

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah

Disclaimer:  This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or other registered professionals. 

Transcript

Gretta 0:18

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing, and understanding for anyone who has been ghosted. I'm Greta, and today I'm interviewing Joanna Hardis, a cognitive behavioral therapist based in Cleveland, Ohio. And I'm incredibly excited to have Joanna on the show because she was ghosted in love. And being ghosted was the event that led her to write her first book, Just Do Nothing, A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. The book was designated a book list editor's pick and received a five-star review from the Los Angeles Book Review. That's amazing. And I read it and I loved it. And I highly recommend this book to anyone who's been ghosted. In addition to being an author, Joanna has a private practice and offers virtual workshops to help people get unstuck with evidence-based treatments. And I'm so glad you're here, Joanna.

Joanna Hardis 1:20

Thank you. I am so glad. That's why I emailed you. I was so excited when I found you and this podcast.

Gretta 1:28

I'd love for you to please share a brief summary of your ghost story.

Joanna Hardis 1:34

Well, I'm been divorced, I think 10 years now. I'm in my 11th year, and hadn't really dated much. I got divorced. My husband had cheated. That's the third page of the book. And had the job of raising three kids. So really was pretty naive about dating. I had dated some, but then met someone, it was summer 2022, and thought that this guy was great. And we had a great vibe. I thought we had good communication. It was a typical story. And we had been dating about three months, and I was going away for my birthday to a spawn Tucson that's really important to me. And I was going for a week, and I invited this guy to meet me at the tail end. And he said yes right away, which I thought was a little odd looking back on it, but he was like so like willing to go. And I was leaving on a Tuesday, and the Saturday before I left, he stopped all communication. And I literally never heard from the guy again. He had canceled our date the day before, saying his kids were sick, which I'm sure in retrospect was a lie. And that Saturday we had had a conversation. It was seemingly normal. And I've never heard from him since. And lo and behold, found out six weeks after I got back that he had had a girlfriend the entire time we were together, that he is now engaged to. Yeah, it really was gut punching. Yes, thanks.

Gretta 3:48

What about this experience led you to write your book?

Joanna Hardis 3:55

It's interesting because I had always had in the back of my mind, like, I'll write a book. I love writing. And I had a really active blog, and I had been doing a lot of workshops with a colleague of mine who was in the Vogue article, How I Got to You. And so I had been really interested in this concept of distress tolerance. And it was the weirdest moment when I got ghosted. I had this moment where I was like, you know what? This is going to be eventually the book. Like this experience, I can't even tell you because I'm not like a universe spoke to me person, but it did. Like it was it was like this weird moment where I was like, this is going to be the catalyst for the book. And so it was the launching off point, but this was stuff I had been thinking about professionally for some time. And I think it carried me through the first six months that were just so hard in this process.

Gretta 5:10

Could you please just share your initial response to being ghosted?

Joanna Hardis 5:15

I was devastated. Most of my close friends are married and in long-term marriages, and they don't really get it. They're lovely, they're incredible, but they're like, this wasn't that long. It was three months, and you've lived through far worse. So like, I don't get this. Like, what is that? Like, why is this such a big deal? And they didn't mean to be invalidating, but I was sort of like, it got me thinking, like, I was gutted by this. And I was gutted for some like a long time. And I think part of it was ghosting is a profoundly gut-wrenching experience. But I think part of it is it took me right back to my marriage ending. And I think for me, it was my deep-seated fear of missing the signs. For me, being ghosted was this fear I have of mistrusting myself and getting duped and like that I can't trust myself. And I think for everybody, being ghosted probably has a different meaning for them. But I think for me, it was like a direct through line to getting cheated, and it brought back all of that. And so I was really just initially, just the pain was like when my husband left, which was people couldn't get, they were like, I don't get it. You know, you dodged a bullet. So, like, what gives? Which was very hard. Now, those first six weeks, I knew I was getting ghosted. I knew exactly what was happening. So I was anxious and just like the roller coaster. I was functioning well on the outside, and inside I was just a disaster. But, you know, I knew, okay, well, this is what you do. Like I can function while anxious. So I was at a spa for a week. And so it was, okay, well, I'm gonna be anxious as I try to enjoy a week. I was feeling just so crummy, but it was like, can I feel crummy? But what else is around me? Can I go on a hike and feel crummy? Can I take it with me and do the things that I knew that might bring me a little moment of joy? Not easy.

Gretta 8:00

Not easy, yeah. So you push through because as a therapist, you know all the things. You have that incredible toolbox full of skills and self-soothing mechanisms, and you know how to calm yourself, right? But yet the feelings were still there.

Speaker 8:21

Uh yeah, and I wasn't calm. I wasn't calm at all. I think I had the benefit of I had done it when my ex-husband left, and I had to carry on. And as an anxiety therapist, I know it, but I think I knew it from like doing it, but I wasn't calm. I was not by any means calm. And I knew enough that I knew not to talk about it because no one wants to hear, like nothing anyone would say was helpful. My challenge was what was going on inside. So that was really hard because I wanted to, okay, what did I do? How did I miss the signs? Is it me? Am I not pretty enough? Am I not thin enough? At that point, that was the initial stuff that quickly stopped. And then it was, how am I missing signs? Once I figured out that it was him, but yeah, it was the stuff in my head that was so hard.

Gretta 9:28

Wow, that's completely relatable. I've had similar thoughts to that before. And I actually plan on doing a podcast soon about body image and ghosting, because so many of us lame ourselves and we think maybe it's the way we look. Maybe our ghost is with somebody who's more attractive now. I've heard that a lot in my Facebook group.

Speaker 9:51

Yes, I certainly struggled with that when my ex-husband left. There's always going to be someone prettier, smarter, all of that. That wasn't that wasn't so much my hook this time.

Gretta 10:08

In the book, you say that our minds are like untrained puppies, and that brain training is like leash training. And then you shared that your mind is more like a yappy terrier versus a chilled-out mastiff. I thought that was so funny. I completely relate to that. And my question is: after you were ghosted, how did you move from a place of overthinking and feeling all that anxiety to being in a place of calm and acceptance? Did you get there? And how did you do it?

Speaker 10:50

It's a great question. And so we have to differentiate. I'm still a terrier. Like I, you know, if you're born a terrier, you're still a terrier. So a terrier doesn't turn into a mastiff, a terrier just can be a better, a trained terrier. So I'm just a trained terrier. But I think we have to differentiate between the anxiety and the overthinking, because one is a behavior and one's a feeling. And so I know, and I think this is my advantage being a therapist that specializes in anxiety disorders. I knew the goal was not to try to make my anxiety go away, because that is not gonna work. So I knew that my goal was to not throw gas on the anxiety fire. In other words, to accept that I'm gonna be anxious and not do things that was gonna make my anxiety worse, which would be stuff like overthinking. Now, I am human. So trying not to overthink is so difficult. But I knew that there was a difference. And this is something that I still, you know, is still a practice. And having had a meditation practice since 2005 helped me. So I have that experience of how to observe my thoughts, how to work with this stuff. So when I would find that I was getting lost in overthinking, which let me tell you was every two seconds, it was reminding myself, Joanna, there is no point to this. And initially it was this guy's not coming back. So all this overthinking you're doing has no point. So like leave it. And I would come back to whatever I'm doing. And literally, this has been my dialogue. Initially, it was Joanna, this guy is not coming back. And throughout the year and a half, it's been Joanna, this guy lied about everything. Like, why are we going down this? Bring it back to whatever it is. But I still, it's few and far between, but I still can get lost in some kind of overthinking or replaying a memory or replaying a conversation. And I have to notice it and remind myself why I'm not doing it and then abandon it.

Gretta 13:37

I love that. Listeners can apply this to their own lives and their own minds.

Speaker 13:43

Yeah. Because I was like, How did I miss the signs? How did I let this happen? I wanted to replay every conversation, every date. I was like, oh my gosh, how could I be so stupid? So I was going through every interaction, everything, and literally making myself so anxious and like spinning such a web of self-blame and anxiety and self-loathing for myself that I missed it. And it was so useless because the guy was great. The guy is a great liar, he's so charismatic, and I wanted a relationship.

Gretta 14:28

So it was not your fault. Thank you. Let's just fast forward to today. How do you feel when you think about what happened?

Speaker 14:43

I give myself so much more grace. I look at myself with so much more compassion and really can see it so much more with more clear eyes. And I really feel so much sadness, like sad sadness for myself that I was duped in such a way. And I feel for his fiancee, but I can really look at myself with compassion that that experience had happened to me.

Gretta 15:17

Yeah, I hear you, and that's a great perspective. I feel similar in the sense that, well, I I was dating a man who ghosted me and he was engaged a few months later, too. So I oh my gosh. I'm right there with you on that. That was probably the most painful one that I had experienced in my life. You spend a lot of the book talking about thoughts, and you share that thinking is under our control. We are not our thoughts, and that all thoughts don't need to be dissected and analyzed. Can you please elaborate on this for listeners?

Speaker 16:03

And I do spend quite a bit of time on this, and it goes back to the difference between the presence of a thought and the behavior of thinking. So the presence of a thought in our head is out of our control. So if a thought pops up, oh I would like a peach for lunch, I think I wouldn't do that in the book. That is a thought, you know, our brain is just gonna spit that up. Now, thinking is our involvement in that thought. Oh, well, the last time I had a peach, it was last summer, and it was so delicious, it was so juicy, but then it rotted, and I made that peach cobbler, but no one ate it. I wonder if they think I'm a terrible cook. That is thinking. So it's getting engaged, or we might say latched on to, but it's involvement or engagement with a thought. Now, sometimes that's really useful, like if it's problem solving. So if you have a thought and then you have an end to it. So sometimes when we engage with a thought, it's to solve a problem. That's great. That's still under our control. However, there is a lot of thinking that happens in our head that is not effective or not very helpful. And many times, especially most of my clients, believe that that is out of their control. So things like worrying or ruminating or overthinking or processing or venting or reassuring or fretting all of those behaviors that we often do unintentionally or just reflexively, those things actually make our feelings stronger. So it's important to be really intentional, especially if we're feeling a feeling we don't like about what our behaviors are. Because it's really intuitive if I'm feeling really in a lot of pain, like you've been ghosted, to want to talk to your friends about it, or to quote unquote process it, or to go over it, like I was doing in my mind. I was replaying it over and over. And it's intuitive. We don't think there's a problem with it, except that there is, because the brain is marking that as important because we're spending so much time and attention on it. And when the brain marks that as important, the brain says, we've got to be vigilant to this. And so it's going to send more thoughts about it and more stress hormones about it. So you're going to get more thoughts about the person and more of those sensations you don't like. This is part of the reason the no contact rule is so important, because we're trying to make new learning in the brain.

Gretta 19:42

Could you share about the no contact rule for listeners who might not be familiar with it?

Speaker 19:48

Sure. And for ghosters, it may already take care of itself. But a lot of times when you're going through a breakup, people will have a no contact rule where you're supposed to have absolutely No contact with the person for, I believe, 90 days. And part of that is because your dopamine system, and I don't really, you know, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I do know that when you break up with someone, your brain is used to that dopamine hit you're getting from that partner. And so when you break up, your brain is still thinking, okay, where's the dopamine? And so that's why when you break up with someone, you may still say, okay, like I miss them so much. It may not be that you miss them. It may be that your brain is just looking for that dopamine. And so it's really important, and you're very vulnerable during those first three months to getting back together. And it may not be because the person was a great match for you, but it may be because your brain is just kind of trying to re-regulate itself. So you want to create that new learning.

Gretta 21:00

That makes a ton of sense. And I I've done that before. It's extraordinarily helpful. And you're right that when you're ghosted, it just takes care of itself. Yes, exactly. In the book, you share a list of some sneaky behaviors that you stopped after being ghosted, including resisting the urge to check on your ghost Facebook profile and ruminate about what happened. Can you please tell us more about this list that you made and explain how it helped you move forward? Sure.

Speaker 21:34

And that was under the scale of distress. I was encouraging people to make their own sliding scale of distress. And so the premise was that when we're trying to make a change, sometimes it's really hard to quit all your behaviors at once. So it can help to scale all the things, all the changes you want to make. And so you scale them, you make a list, like what from 10 to 1, 10 being the hardest things it would be to give up, one being the easiest. And so the change is incremental. And so on there, I put, you know, I scaled my own things like listening to Kendrick Lamar without like replaying that memory, because that was the first time we traveled together to go see Kendrick Lamar, down to like look, you know, not checking the Facebook page and not ruminating about some event. And it was a way for me to approach changing my behavior in a way that was more systematic. Most people just say, okay, now I have to give up everything. I can't do anything. And that's incredibly difficult. Change is really hard. So we want to think about it in a more systematic way, with like, okay, what would be the hardest thing to do? And what would be the easiest? And so I just listed mine out as what I did. And most of mine were things that I did in my head that were some were triggered by going somewhere, like seeing his place of work and not saying, Oh my gosh, remember that memory I had there? And then berating myself for missing a sign that I had missed there, or looking at his Facebook page and then berating myself for missing signs. But some people's are more behavioral, like not texting, not calling, not driving by their place of work, not driving by their house. So it just depends on what the person's behaviors are.

Gretta 23:58

Those are such great strategies. I love that. At one point in the book, you wrote that you realized it wasn't my ghost that I missed. It was hope I missed. Can you explain this in more detail?

Speaker 24:14

I can't remember when exactly I realized that. I don't know who I dated. I mean, he lied so much. At first I thought it was him and that I really liked him. But perhaps it was when I realized that everything he had said to me was a lie. But, you know, I realized that it's not about him. It was about my feelings. And it was the feelings that I experienced with him. It probably could have been anyone, but it was the excitement I was starting to feel again with someone. It was the hope I was starting to feel again. It was the possibility that I loved feeling and that I missed. I, you know, in three months, I didn't really know him. Plus, he lied about everything. So I think that's what it was. It's certainly painful to know that someone could lie about so much. But apart from that, I don't know that anyone knows anybody after three months.

Gretta 25:20

Right. I hear and I've learned that it really takes about at least six months of good quality time to get to know somebody at least that to a year. I think a year is when you truly know them. And then I think it's even more important to get to know their friends and their family, and if they have family or friends, like just in order to like truly get to know them. What do you think about that?

Joanna Hardis 25:46

Exactly. A year, I think a year minimum. I think six months, you can still be in that lustful honeymoon-ish. And I think I'm with you. I'm totally agree with you that friends, family, I would want to meet the ex-wives. There's two, the ex-wives.

Gretta 26:10

Yeah. Yeah, it takes a while. And then even with that, you still have to get to know somebody within different contexts too. So if you can take a trip with your significant other or even your friend, whoever it is that you're in this relationship with and you want to get to know them better, take a trip with them, do boring things, do fun things, just like be in different environments so you can see how they respond.

Speaker 26:35

Yes. This is a little bit off track, but I think the one of the things with these dating apps is that if they're not in your community and they're not accountable to anybody, I would account for more time. I would add on more time to that. Because there's no one to vet them. So it's not like if someone is in your community and they're accountable to someone, then they have some onus to have good behavior. But if they have no responsibility to have good behavior, I would add on more time.

Gretta 27:13

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Is there anything else that you'd like to share in general with people who are healing after being ghosted?

Speaker 27:24

You absolutely can recover. And I think it's so important that we don't need closure from the other person. That we give ourselves closure. And I learned this from my divorce. There's this, and I don't know where it came from, that you know, I need the other person to give me closure. But no, we give ourselves closure. When we're able to do that, in whatever time frame, this is the other thing that I think is important, it doesn't matter how long you were dating this person. So I don't think it can be, you know, you weren't dating that long, so you should be able to like get over it. That's nonsense. In whatever time frame is necessary to do it, but we can close that loop for ourselves and move through it and move on. We don't need the other person. I think it's just important to understand what it meant for us, what we learned from it, how we and how we move through it.

Gretta 28:30

Exactly. This has been so incredible. Where can listeners find your book and how can they connect with you?

Speaker 28:40

They can find it at anywhere they buy books. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org, I think it is. If they want to get a sense, you can download a free chapter on my website, joannahardis.com. They can find me there. They can find me on Instagram at Joanna Hardis. I'm on Facebook, all social media.

Gretta 29:01

Perfect. And I'll put a link to it in the show notes as well.

Speaker 29:04

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Gretta 29:06

Yes, and thank you for coming on the show and sharing your truth with the listeners. And I'm just so grateful that you took the pain of being ghosted and turned it into purpose. And I know that your story and your words of wisdom are helping listeners right now.

Speaker 29:27

Thank you for having this. When I found you, I was like, oh my gosh, it's it helped me to know you were here because there's not many people that are doing this.

Gretta 29:39

Yeah, thank you. I'm really glad that I can do something about this because I have been, as you said, it's gut wrenching. It's for me, it's just it was soul crushing. And so I just I really want to help people feel better.

Speaker 29:55

Yeah, I applaud you. I agree. It is.

Gretta 30:00

I loved interviewing Joanna. She's so wonderful. Being ghosted was clearly not her fault. She didn't deserve it, and it wasn't personal. And I just wanted to acknowledge that Valentine's Day is coming up, and I'm sending love to anyone who's grieving their ghost during this holiday. You're allowed to grieve the loss of the relationship you had with them. And if you feel like doing nothing on Valentine's Day, I'm giving you permission to take the day off and do nothing. Your feelings and your needs are valid. Just take it off as a mental health day. Remember, don't compare yourself to other people. Have self-compassion and just allow yourself to rest. I know how stressful it can be to be ghosted this time of year. So I just wanted to remind you to take all the love that you have or had for your ghost and shine it right back at yourself. Earlier today, I went to a new dance class and brunch with my girlfriends, and I had such a good time. And it seems like that, just trying something new, being with the people I love, and connecting that bring me tons of joy. If you are not feeling your best after being ghosted, I encourage you to do something different. Maybe get out of your comfort zone, mix things up a bit in your schedule. It's always good to expand your horizons and focus on what you can control. You have the power to make small, positive changes every day. And little by little, it will make a really big impact in your life. And one big change I made recently was starting to use Magic Mind. That's a little matcha power drink. And it improved my day so much. I drink it in the morning, which helps wake me up and get me in the right state of mind for a super productive day. And after drinking it for a few days in a row, I find that it really gives me mental energy and focus and that I get more done in less time. It's all natural ingredients sourced from the best suppliers Magic Mind could find. It's sugar-free, nut-free, vegan, keto, paleo-friendly, all the things that we love. And matcha is nature's extended release caffeine. So it takes longer to release and it helps reduce stress. So if you're like me and need some more natural energy, I totally recommend you try it. You can get it at magicmind.com slash ghosting with code ghosting20. That's g-h-o-s-t-in-g 2-0, all capital letters. You can also get up to 56% off your subscription or 20% off your one-time purchase. That's ghosting20 for 56% off. And it also works if you're already a subscriber, so you'll save on your next subscription payment. So if you're having trouble being at 100% some days, I encourage you to try it out. Not only does it help with focus and energy, but it's also a really great substitute for coffee. You don't get any jitters or anything like that. Again, it's magicmind.com slash ghosting with discount code ghosting20 for up to 56% off the subscription. And a little tip is to get the 30 pack because that's the best value. I'll put all the details in the show notes. Thanks everyone for listening today. And if you haven't already, please leave a review for the show. Follow me at Coping with Ghosting on social media. You can also join my free and private Facebook group and sign up for my coaching sessions over at copingwithghosting.com, where you can also find the Take Your Power Back workshops. And listeners, be sure to remember when you're ghosted, you have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills. You deserve the best.