Coping With Ghosting

Long-Term Relationship Ghosting with Dr. Stan Tatkin

• Gretta

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If you've been ghosted in a long-term relationship or want to learn more about ghosting and dating, this episode is for you. Gretta is joined by Dr. Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT, a clinician, researcher, and developer of the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy® (PACT). Dr. Tatkin speaks and teaches worldwide on how to understand, create, and sustain secure-functioning relationships. He's authored six bestselling books and has trained thousands of therapists.
In this show, Dr. Tatkin shares his views on:
-  What to do if you've been ghosted in a long-term relationship
- Attachment and distancing behaviors
- How to communicate with children who've been impacted by the sudden disappearance of an adult in their life
- How to build healthy new romantic connections
And so much more! This show's a must for anyone who's been ghosted in love or is looking for a new romance.

Connect with Dr. Tatkin:

The PACT Institute
New! Wired For Love: Fully Revised and Updated Second Edition
Instagram

Connect With Gretta:
Free Guide: What to Say To Your Ghost
Coaching With Gretta
Take Your Power Back Workshop
Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com

BetterHelp:
Go to https://betterhelp.com/copingwithghosting for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help #sponsored

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah

Disclaimer:  This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or other registered professionals. 

Ghosted? We've got you covered. Download Coping With Ghosting 101. This workshop's designed to help you better understand why ghosting happens, ways to feel better now, and actionable steps to take your power back. Your purchase will help support this podcast, so it’s a win-win!

Note to All Listeners: Ghosting is defined as: The practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication (Oxford Languages).
When you leave an abusive situation without saying "goodbye," it's not ghosting, it's "self-protection." When you quietly exit a relationship after a boundary has been violated, it's not ghosting, it's "self-respect."

Gretta:

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted. I'm your host, G retta, and today's focus is long-term relationship ghosting. I'm honored guest introduce my guest, Dr. Stan Tatkin, a clinician, researcher and developer of the Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy, PACT. He speaks and teaches around the world on how to understand, create and sustain secure, functioning relationships, and more than 1.7 million people have tuned into Dr Tatkin's TEDx talk. He's authored six best-selling books, including Wired for Love, and trained thousands of therapists around the world. Welcome, D r. Tatkin.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Thank you, Gretta, thanks for having me.

Gretta:

It's my absolute pleasure. I'm so happy you're here. And before I dive into everything, I'd like to provide a reminder to all listeners maybe there's some new listeners today that the definition of ghosting that I use for this podcast comes from Oxford Languages and it is the practice of ending a personal relationship with somebody by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication. So I just want everyone to note that this is different than leaving an abusive situation without a goodbye that's self-protection. It's also different than disappearing after a boundary has been violated that's self-respect. So, D dr. Tatkin, can you please tell listeners about the second edition of your bestselling relationship book, Wired for Love, how understanding your partner's brain and attachment style can help you diffuse conflict and build a secure relationship.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Sure, that was the second book that came out. Love and War came out first, and it's one of the most popular ones, but I wrote it in 2012, and I've learned a lot since then, and so it really needed an update, an upgrade, including what we didn't do during that time. The couple situation was actually much more heteronormative in terms of the examples and dyadic meaning two person systems, so we've since broadened our thinking and how to approach not just couples, but throuples right and and more people that are in poly, you know, arrangements with people in consensual, non-monogamy, transgendered and sort of also the the all the other arrangements that people have been making really since the beginning of time, but we're more aware of it today, and so I wanted to be much more inclusive, so there is a chapter on that. There's also some caveats on some of the things that I did right in 2020, 2012, and then also incorporating new material.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

So, it was a much needed upgrade.

Gretta:

I very much appreciate all of those upgrades. So thank you for doing that. Thank you, and I have to say I was really blown away when I looked at the cover and I saw endorsements from Gwyneth Paltrow and Alanis Morissette, so that's amazing.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

They're terrific. These are two impressive people in the world, both of them highly intelligent. Highly, I mean wonderful people actually.

Gretta:

I would love to have them on my podcast. So if a listener suspects that they're being ghosted in a long-term relationship, so maybe their significant other hasn't called or texted them back like they normally would, what steps can they take to communicate or repair? And caveat I just want to assume that all the text messages have read receipts. Like there's no emergency that prevents them from replying.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Right, you know we were talking before we started here a little bit about attachment. And there is there is something that happens with certain people even before this trend came about People in we call it the distancing group, people who are organized more towards distancing, which is something that an adaptation, that happens around postnatal, you know, the postnatal period. So we learn very early in infancy the culture that we're born into and how to operate and what's allowed, what's not allowed. You know, in distancing cultures neediness is not allowed. It's, you know, we don't do neediness and independence, autonomy is the name of the game, and that often has a terrible price on an infant and child and adult. And that terrible price is actually interpersonal and can lead to people who are more inclined to do ghosting than the average bear, than the average bear.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

And so I just wanted to say that there's a common issue many times in people in the distancing group, where they have this fantasy of omnipresence and time collapses because they often manage themselves in a way that we call auto-regulatory, meaning they self-soothe and self-excite, stimulate without the need of a person, because people are just a little bit too stressful and so they're more inclined to even forget that they've dropped a partner, even forget, and I've seen people do that who have been together for a while, and then they just are focused, highly focused, for weeks, months, and then suddenly they wake up as if out of a fugue and go you know what have I done?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

And they'll rush back only to find that the other person was ghosted by them and doesn't want to resume the relationship and maybe even have moved on, and so this is a phenomenon that doesn't happen with other groups, because they're more aware of relationship and less aware of relationship and less focused on the self and self-needs and they experience less interpersonal stress than these distancing folk. So there is that there's an entire group of people that are more inclined to do this because of their distancing and because of their ability to forget that they're not contacting, they think their partner is always around in their head and they're not going to go anywhere. But they do and it comes as a shock to them. So there is that group.

Gretta:

How big of the population is the distancing group Like? Is this a large portion of the population or?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

very teeny Big part of the Western world. Big part of the Western world, you know. We see this in babies in the beginning, when they're just being mobile away from the caregiver. They're crawling first and they love being able to crawl away from the caregiver and that's called practicing. That's a separation, you know expression, right To move away and crawl away and explore the non-caregiver world. And they have, they're able to do this, uh, because they have a fantasy of omnipresence. Um, the caregiver is always there, they don't need to think, so they're calmed and they're soothed by this idea that they're. They're not, uh, far away until they look back. And then they, you know, back on their crawling back to the caregiver. Or when they are able to stand and walk, they do this famously Now it's like getting a set of wheels and a car and now they're able to walk away from their caregivers and kind of meet other toddlers at the water cooler. But this matter of omnipresence is a fantasy that is as yet unaware that they could lose the relationship, that they could lose that secure base by being visually out of sight. And so that gives way to another stage where they are more tied to the caregiver and they bring the environment back to the caregiver. In other words, they start sharing their explorations with the caregiver as a way to solve that problem right and then they begin to worry about the status of the relationship. So a lot of people in the distancing group aren't at that place. They're much more interested in the consolidation of themselves or the self and their independence and autonomy, which actually isn't so much for the distancing people, autonomy or distancing, it's actually a forced kind of independence. They don't really have the choice of clinging and of depending, because the caregivers are oriented towards, you know, run along now and they like their children to be independent in their rooms, quiet and not a problem.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

That does sound terrible when I say that, but it's not meant to be. Again, it's a cultural thing because the parents are more focused on the self as well than relationships. So this is it's not heritable per se, but it is part of nature repeating itself and so, generation by generation, this kind of parenting, this kind of environment, this social environment repeats and that's how we get, you know, distancing, and then the culture, like our culture, you know, be independent, be autonomous, don't tread on me, I'm a self-made person. All of those messages suggest that we have cultural support for this idea that we don't, shouldn't, depend on others, right? And then, you know, western Europe is this way, and in a lot of Asia is this way, japan especially so.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

It is nature, is nature. It's not evil, it's not good or bad, right or wrong. It is, but it does pose a problem. Um, to interpersonal relationships, intimacy, you know, fidelity, and, uh, you know this idea of commitment, right. And so I just wanted to say that, because it's you know, ghosting is being aided by technology. Technology has made it possible for people to do this without any feeling of they're doing something they shouldn't do. Right, because it's all anonymous. It's very easy to cut somebody off because, after all, you don't really know them that well right and then it becomes a friend.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

But it's horrible. I'm the receiving of it is horrible. There's, there's nothing worse. And the reason it's so bad is because we're uh, we're pack animals, we're herd animals. We depend on interpersonal relationships, on talking. We depend on others. That's our nature and it's usually trained out of us.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

But we're more clingy by nature as a species than distancing because of our dependency needs. Because of our dependency needs. So you could say that when we are abandoned like that, it hits an extremely primitive, primal survival instinct that goes all the way back to infancy. That is like death and that's why it's so utterly painful and feels so cruel. Because it's not just painful and feels so cruel because it's not just you know something like you know losing your wallet or not seeing your cat for days. This is far more primal because we're, you know, we're meant to bond to others. That's nature's glue attachment. Meant to bond to others, that's nature's glue attachment. And when that breaks, um, there's a kind of devastation and on some level inside, that is, like I said, goes all the way back to infancy yeah, wow, those are powerful points and there's one more factor.

Gretta:

Should.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

I just load you up.

Gretta:

Yes, do it.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Our brains have what's called a negativity bias. We're born with a tilt towards negativity and the reason is survival, that we have to be aware of things that would hurt us. So we have minds that create things, make things up constantly, constantly making things up. And when we don't have data, if you don't say anything to me, my mind fills in the blanks. So if you're really quiet and really still, while you're still and I'm talking to you, my mind is actively, at least subcortically, filling in blanks and guessing what you're doing. In the absence of knowing what you're doing, I'm going to think often of the worst possible possibilities. According to my personal narrative, my life, the way I've lived my life and my memories and that's the other part. The absence of someone, without explanation, causes our mind to fill it in and we'll be tortured with stuff that we are insecure about, stuff that we remember, that have worried us about relationship from the very beginning. So what did I do? Did I say something? Was it something, you know? And our mind is awash with all of these thoughts and self-talk about what happened. It's got to be something terrible. We don't think that the person was run over, we think that we messed up and that's, I think, the cruel part is, in the absence of knowing something, the mind is forced to make stuff up and it's not going to be positive. The mind isn't Disneyland, and that's again necessary for survival. So that's why it's a problem.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Even with shy people. We project onto them, we think, oh, maybe they don't like us or they're too good good for us, or they're arrogant or whatever. No, they're just shy. But because we're not getting any signals from them, we imagine the worst. Right, if they just wore a t-shirt or a hat that said, hey, I'm nice, I'm just shy, we wouldn't do it right, we'd go up to them seriously. But who, who knows that? So so these these non-communicative periods, um, especially today, when we're so used to getting responses right away, we don't get a response and and a certain timing, and then we start to go. What happened was when? What's going on? We start to perseverate over this, and that's also a sign of our times that it used to be. You know, you didn't get a response from someone, because it took days, weeks for a horse to get the message to you, and then, and then people would call. There would be no answering machine. You wouldn't expect anything else. And then, with the start of the answering machine. That's when this all began.

Gretta:

Got it Wow. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Being ghosted can be heartbreaking. It can bring up Wow issue like depression or anxiety, or if you're just a human who lives in this world and is going through a hard time, therapy can give you the tools to approach your life in a very different way After being ghosted, therapy helped me handle challenging emotions and cultivate self-compassion.

Gretta:

It was a game changer and that's why I'm happy to tell you about today's sponsor, betterhelp. Betterhelp connects you with a licensed therapist trained to listen and provide helpful, unbiased advice. You can visit their site using my link, betterhelpcom slash coping with ghosting, and all you need to do is answer a few questions and BetterHelp will match you to a professional who has years of experience helping people with struggles similar to yours years of experience helping people with struggles similar to yours. You can do this all from your phone or computer, via phone call, video chat or messaging whatever's most comfortable for you. So visit betterhelpcom slash coping with ghosting or choose coping with ghosting during signup and enjoy a special discount on your first month. The direct link is also in my show notes. So if a listener thinks that they're being ghosted by somebody they're in a long-term relationship with what could they do? What would you suggest is the protocol here?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

The fault lies in the person who is ghosting. Right, the fault lies, and that is just the fact. You know, there's no reason why somebody would do that unless they feel that they can without consequence. And so that's just the way it is. And unfortunately it renders the ghosted person completely and utterly helpless. Completely and utterly helpless. Which is why, when I read some of your material, why I wouldn't recommend that there's any rapprochement with that person.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

There would be little reason for that, because that ranks as a major betrayal. Now, that doesn't mean you never would do that, because only you know the quality of your relationship and whether it's worthwhile rekindling. But to go back to that relationship without firm terms and conditions that are measurable would be nuts, because if someone does that once, they're more likely not to do it again. So this is like lying or cheating. These are betrayals. It's spelled as treason and you know we're supposed to. You know, if somebody bells on us in the middle of a gunfight and we're pleased, we want another partner, we're not safe, right, that's a deal breaker. Can't, can't happen, right, yeah, and so I think of it as on the same order that that can't happen. You just ruled yourself out as a safe person okay, so you're talking about.

Gretta:

Terms and conditions need to be established in order to go back to this ghost. For the person listening who really wants desperate to get this ghost back. What are the steps to rebuilding?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Well, here's the problem. We have an attachment system that nature has created, like I said, nature's glue that holds us together for very good reasons. To raise a child for at least four years out in the wild makes us stick together, to be together in interdependent groups or tribes or any union where we need safety and security or we need to profit, right. But we organize in groups. So the idea of someone bailing and leaving, like I said, tends to activate that negativity bias in the mind, and I don't care who the person is. We feel less than and this goes back to childhood. I remember I was raised by kind of a nanny. She was a housekeeper, but I was the youngest in my family and so she really handled most of the parenting functions, including putting me to bed at night and waking me up and birthday mornings and even going on vacations with us. And so when she, when I was about seven or eight, when she was fired, I woke up one morning I sensed something was wrong and I saw her across the street in her pink sweater and remember it like was yesterday and her whites with her luggage, and I knew she wasn't coming back. And so that took a toll on me and for years and years I kept thinking this was my fault, that when I had heard that she worked in our neighborhood, she found work with another family, with other young children I felt like I was not good enough and that I had to prove myself whenever I visited her. And that is what happens to most of us. When we don't have control of a separation, when we don't have control of a dissolving of a relationship, if the other person is holding the cards right and they pull the trigger, we end up feeling like this, even if we didn't necessarily want to be in that relationship. So it's not just the longing for somebody, it is. They took something. They took something my self-esteem, my sense of being good enough, my sense of right and I want it back of being good enough, my sense of right, and I want it back. And so that's one motivation that people will want desperately to get back to their partner. Right, you stole something from me and I need to recover that. I need to recoup that. It really isn't about love. That's what. That's the thing here. We confuse this for love. It isn't. It's about safety and security. That's it. The same thing with attachment bonding right. We confuse it with love when it's actually survival, and those are two very different things.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

The survival instinct is something for our cerebral cortex, notably our prefrontal cortex, to override and to tell ourselves no, I'm not going to die. This is not my mother leaving me in a hole or sending me up the Nile River in a basket. This is an adult who actually betrayed me, who actually did something, or just left, decided to leave, right. I'm stuck with that feeling like an infant that will never, ever, ever understand why right, that's what we go, why. And then we talk to our friends to death, right until they don't want to talk anymore, and and every now and then we go yeah, that's right, that's right, that wasn't good for me. Then you know it was this thing and this thing, this thing, and then wait for it, uh, you know 20 minutes. But why? And the reason of that? But why is that?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

There's, I think, a part of us that will never understand why someone who loved us doesn't, why somebody who was with us and left us and even death is easier to deal with because we know they're dead but here someone still is on the planet, they still exist. How does that make sense? How could they leave me, how could they stop loving me, how could they stop being with me? That doesn't compute to this part of us, this infant part, and so we confuse it with love and that's a problem, because that's not good. That's a problem because that's not good. That's not good for our lives, because we should be living our lives based on what is right and what is best, not what is convenient, and we feel that we've lost something. We want to get it back. We won't get it back. We want to feel that we're loved again. That isn't love, right, it isn't. The damage has been done. This person, actually, if we think about it, has shown themselves inappropriate for us, unsafe for us, unworthy for the job of partnership.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

It is a serious matter, right. We will group together, unionize, fundamentally to stay alive. It's for survival, right? Well, the person just violated that first rule. We protect each other at all times. The reason we're unionizing, at the very least, is to survive. We don't join a business to get killed or robbed. Right is to survive. We don't join a business to get killed or robbed right. We join it because we'll be safe and secure and we'll profit and we'll do something good that we want to do with this group.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

So I would say that get therapy. This is a great time to explore yourself and understand yourself, not this person, because the therapist, who can't see that person, can only, you know, use their imagination. That's not great. So it's an internal thing, right? Someone leaves you. You have no control over it. It's like you know a tree falling on your house and you have to mourn the loss. You have to grieve the loss, otherwise it will change you and make the next relationship complicated. It'll be complicated by your feeling of loss and injustice and you may try to get your justice out with that new person who's innocent. So we grieve losses, otherwise we remain angry, because the anger is an expression of say it ain't so. I refuse to accept this. I, you know, you owe me. I again I've been robbed. So I think it's important for people to journal, to join a group of other people who perhaps have had this experience, so you can get comfort and feel that you're not alone.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Take long walks in nature. This is one thing that was given to me by one of my patients. I tried it when I was going through a tough time. When I was going through a tough time, you go out in nature and make sure you're not with an earshot of people and you, you stay there as long as you need to and you talk to yourself out loud. You talk, so you have a conversation with that part of you that feels abandoned, feels worthless, that feels you know what did I do and that wants to pursue this right, which is a disruption. You cannot fix this. It's done, right, it's done, and the only person who could fix it is the person who did it, and they have a lot of explaining to do and they have a lot of proving to do.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

If you're a person of principle and you want a good life, you're going to have to talk to yourself, that part of you that wants them back, that feels so abandoned and so devastated and hurt. You're going to have to, like, talk to that part of yourself over and over and over and over again, because it wants to do something that is penny wise and pound foolish. It'll make you feel better for the moment if you succeed, but not at all assuring a good future, because somebody broke a social contract with you and agreements in this life with other human primates is all we have. We don't have anything else.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

You agree, based on principle, what you're going to do, what we're going to do whether you feel like it or not, because feelings are the problem here Makes us do all sorts of terrible things to our relationships. So we have to have agreements. We're going to stick by each other. Yes, do you want that? We're going to make our relationship the most important priority, because we can and because the world won't, and because we do that because everyone and everything depends on us being in good shape and happy. Otherwise everything sucks. So let's do that and let's not do this other thing Agreed, agreed. And people have to make those agreements so that they know exactly that they're on the same page. But this thing about love and this thing about bonding and attachment are misleading. The love that many times we feel is nature's orders to procreate. We found somebody who is biochemically appropriate for us, more likely than not to produce an offspring, and nature's not concerned about love. Nature's not concerned about relationship. We are, and so this is about growing up.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

I think for all parties, actually all parties. You know. This is about honor. This is about character. This is about who are you as a person. It's not about love. It's about evidence daily that this person is who they say they are and will do what they agree to period. Sorry, that's the reality of it. Otherwise, you're courting more danger and you're keeping yourself young and you're not taking care of yourself. Taking care of yourself means that you pick people who are reliable and trustworthy. Otherwise, you're not taking care of yourself right, and this is a daily proof. This is not something you can. You know they have to disprove that they're reliable, disprove that they're trustworthy, and once that happens, they may have to be fired.

Gretta:

I hear you Wow yeah.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

I know, I know I've been through it. It happened to me once and it was before. It was a trend and it was like, oh my God, what happened to this person? We were on the phone, we were going to go to see a movie and this person disappeared forever. They're going to call me right back. We're going to movie. Nothing over Nothing. I don't know if this person got hurt or anything like that. I'm assuming, no, I'm assuming that's what happened, and it's an awful, awful feeling. I don't care who you are. Well, maybe who you are might make it so that you're not so sensitive to this, but most of us, I think, would be.

Gretta:

Yeah, I think it's normal to be extremely hurt when somebody basically discards you. Yeah, yeah, okay. So I have a few questions about everything you just said. First, if somebody is in a long-term relationship, there might be children or pets involved, so do you have any suggestions for how to deal with that?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

So if there are kids involved, well, that's a legal matter, right? If somebody has taken the kids, is that what you mean? Taking the kids? Yeah, taking the kids. Is that what you mean? Taking the kids?

Gretta:

Yeah. So I guess my question is like let's say, somebody is in a long-term relationship and the kids are now attached to this ghost. How do you communicate with the children Like, oh, this person left, how do you explain it as a parent? That also the legal situation as a whole.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

other thing I don't think we need to get into that today, but the answer is complicated because it really depends on the age of the children, right, um, in terms of brain development, uh, it's maybe inappropriate to explain, uh, or it may be more appropriate to make something up that helps children to sleep at night. But it depends on their age. Once children are getting to be around seven, eight, they're able to think a different way than children are at four and five. Those children are more magical, and a seven, eight-year-old really is beginning to have a sense of impermanence and permanence, but impermanence and that people can leave and people can die. But they're still at a tender age where they don't get a lot of things still.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Then you go to preteen, 10, 11, 12. And there I think that that is one of the most difficult ages to lose a caregiver, right, you know, up to 14,. Actually, some kids never get over that in life, because that's a very important age of, again, separation, individuation, where the child is becoming more influenced by peer groups and is pushing parents away while at the same time want to be just like them, and so imagine a parent in the middle of that, going away. There are all sorts of internal problems on how that's interpreted inside. So that has to be accounted for, and the older someone gets, the better it is for them to understand what has happened. So it really depends, and if you're going to talk to your kids about anything like this, you let them lead, you don't say more than you need to say, because you want them on an as needed basis, a need to know basis for them to lead, so you're careful not to give them too much information, information they don't know what to do with, right, because the parents' feelings, the parents' anxiety or guilt or whatever. So there's that.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

But abandonment of a family, abandonment of children again another serious matter, another very serious matter. And as bad as it feels, it is something that has to be thought about in terms of reunion, because out, in terms of reunion, because, um, that's, that's a problem, uh, um and uh, and so I, I, I think you know the rest of it. Taking children is criminal, I mean, it can be. It often is if it's across state lines, without permissions. So we're talking now about another level. Yeah, and taking pets, now you go gunning for them, took my dog.

Gretta:

Yeah, I'm kidding.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

But yeah, all of that can happen because people, we're animals, folks, we forget. We think that we're just nice people. Well, we are nice when we're happy. We are nice when we feel good. Some of us make us feel bad and we're just nice people. Well, we are nice when we're happy. We are nice when we feel good. Some of us make us feel bad and we're not so nice.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

We do what we want and what we want is for us only, and we may not care about the effect it has on other people. That's species wide. That's not simply just personality. That is species-wide. It's always been that way. So that's why you plan.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

When you are with somebody, the two of you plan for your devils, not your angels, because devils, we are under the wrong conditions and that's called a social contract. Let's do this and never do that. But couples don't do that. Businesses do rock and roll bands do, dance troops do cop car partners do, people in the military do. Almost all other unions have social contracts because they understand people are wild animals.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

We're primates, we're apes, and that can be proven at any given time when we're at our worst. So this is a naivety problem. This is a problem of not understanding how the human condition operates, that we're selfish and self-centered, moody, fickle, aggressive, aggressive, warlike creatures that are easily influenced by outside forces and, um, and xenophobic we otherize very easily. So we're not, we're not great, you know, across the board, and, um, and it's not a gender thing, it's not a sex thing, it's not a cultural thing, it's not an age thing. Well, it is an age thing because, uh, you know, kids that are, you know, two years old, three years old, are, are pure primates in the sense that, uh, they're not being reined in by social norms, right, um, you don't, you don't want to give them an uzi and let them rule the world because it's scorched earth. So, um, so so, but this, there's a reality about us, and only in couples are we stupid, um, where we have our personal fantasies and expectations and entitlements from childhood and we don't align them with this other person who's a complete stranger. We just assume they're on the same page and they're not. And, uh, it's a big mistake, right, we're sort of in la-la land and we're not realistic.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

We don't organize, we don't create, co-create a structure. You and I, if we started a relationship, it would be something that we made up, because it doesn't exist, right, it's a creation. We're the creators. Truly, we invented it, and if we invented it, we're responsible for the outcome and how we feel, because it's on us to do that. That's the reality. Otherwise, we're imagining we're in some other system, like a family, which we're not. So this is a problem for people who do what I do work with couples as a specialty. It's the only union that does not think of itself as having to set up shop, having to organize, having to come up with the rules of how we're going to protect each other from each other. Doesn't do it until too late.

Gretta:

Right, right. So then, if somebody is in a relationship and they're concerned that they might be ghosted in the future, what can they do Exactly, like what are helpful things that they could do with their partner to?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

I know it's impossible to prevent ghosting, but to try to prevent ghosting from happening ghosting, but to try to prevent ghosting from happening when you're vetting a partner, I don't care how or where. This is the way it must be done. That you're Sherlocking you start to learn through. The dating process is a learning process of learning how to read people, learning how to pick up cues, learning how to read people, learning how to pick up cues, learning how to look in places that people normally don't to see. Who am I dealing with, really? Because in the beginning, everyone is putting their best foot forward. Nobody is letting you know exactly who they are, because you'd run, and so you have to really pay attention, not to look like you know they're on trial, but friendly but curious and noticing everything how they treat people around them when you're with them, how they act when you bring them to friends and families. Have always your friends and family vet. These people Ask them ahead of time. When I bring this person around, I want you to tell me the truth about how I appear with them. Do I seem myself? Do you like the me that is with this person? Do you like them? What do you think about them? Right? And you ask people that are old and young, right? Um, male and female, because they'll have different takes on this person. This is how it's been done since the beginning. The tribe, uh, the clan, uh, everybody uh decides whether this person will fit into the culture, right. So they're kind of mini yous, except they're not you. And the reason you're doing that is because your own drugs. When you first meet somebody, you are not thinking correctly. Nobody is uh. Your mind is altered by, by. You know nature's love potion and you are more likely than not to overlook things and uh and and to be driven by that need, like I said, to mate. But you use your social network as a vetting process and you listen to what they have to say and you take time, you don't jump into things, you assume you don't know this person, you won't know them at all for a year at least, and then you don't really know them for several years after that. So so this is again the don't be naive part. Um that, yes, it is compelling. Yes, we do want a russian. Yes, we feel like we found the one. Yes, I feel like like I'm on the top of the world. Of course, but that doesn't tell me anything about what would this person be like when they're angry, when they're afraid, will they bolt? Will they do this? Do that Right? I need to really do my investigating without coming off as obnoxious.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

There are ways to find things out so that you begin to look for the perfect relationship, not the perfect person. What's the perfect relationship you want? You make a mistake if you look for the perfect person because there isn't. So what you want is somebody who wants what you want. Do you want a relationship where the relationship comes first? Check. Do you want a person who will tell you everything and both you believe in full transparency, because the alternative is bad? Yes, check. Do you want somebody who will have your back and you'll have their back at all times, no matter what? Even if I don't like you, I'm still having your back and that's what we do. Check. Do you want somebody who will play this game with you and go through life shaping and reshaping this thing called your relationship? So the two of you are absolutely committed to each other's safety and security, committed to each other's absolute sense of happiness and well-being. You can do that by agreement.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

So look for the relationship that you must have, not the person, because the person is either on board with you or isn't. They may be good looking and sexy and whatever. There may be a fire cell that makes you want to do it right away because you want to have a baby. All sorts of pressures that make you do the wrong thing. But you are vetting somebody for the long road a partner in crime, the most powerful partner next to you, and you're going to rule the world. You're going to change everything. You're going to protect each other at all times. You're the insiders, everyone else is the outsiders. You're in charge, the two of you. If that's what you want, accept nothing else.

Gretta:

Got it.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Yeah, thank you for that.

Gretta:

Also talking to you. Yes, exactly Right, right. Are you struggling after being ghosted? If so, you're not alone. In the Take your Power Back W orkshop, C coach Estee K. and I guide you through practical ways to heal, learn why ghosting isn't about you, how to prioritize self-care and rebuild stability. This video workshop is under an hour so you can pause, reflect and come back to any portion whenever you need it. Visit copingwithghosting. com or click the link in the show notes and take your power back today. Okay, so what would a conversation look like? If so, I've been ghosted. So let's say, I'm starting to date somebody new. This is a hypothetical situation. I'm dating somebody and I'm concerned that they might ghost me just because of my history of being on the ghosted merry-go-round, if you will. So if I wanted to say you know, I've been ghosted in the past, I just want open communication like is there a specific way of communicating this without seeming too needy or insecure?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

You know I'm making this up because I didn't think about this before. You know I'm making this up because I didn't think about this before. But if you're creating a friendship with this person, you're getting to know them. Right? You're chatting, you're talking. Why not bring up the phenomena of ghosting? Have you ever gone through that before? Yeah, boy, that you know I have. It's really really painful and you both can just talk about it, like you talk about, you know, uh, global warming or politics, right, it's. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about this, right, you know, and you know it's. It's really going around and it really is horrible. You know, what do you think? Uh?

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

has that ever happened to you. Oh, no, no, oh no, no, no, never happened. Wow, that, no, that's terrible. Um, I think you'd probably like to hear that, yeah, I have. And boy, that was, that was awful. That makes it could make you feel, um, a smidge, uh, safer by hearing that. Oh, tell me about it. What, what happened? Um, so you want somebody who suffered from that. Maybe they'll think, right, yeah, and then they know that you suffered from this and this is this can be, you know, uh, a topic that's, like I said, like talking about, uh, you know, ain't it awful about, you know, certain things that are happening in the world right now.

Gretta:

That might work. I like that a lot, because if they say, oh yeah, I ghost people all the time, you know, that's the biggest red flag ever. Bye.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

If that person says yeah, I ghost people all the time, that's the person you want to interview, Because not only that they do that, but that they told you they do that.

Gretta:

Right, right.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Get to know the person, so you want to investigate that person so you can identify them next time. Again, dating is not a lost effort, it's not a waste of time if you're using it right. Dating is a way, if you're really thinking about it, to improve your people skills, to improve your skills at reading people, even if it's just one time, even if it's a bore. There is no such thing as someone who's boring, there's just a boring interviewer. So you know you're interviewing, you're interested, right, and you're finding ways of getting information without the person knowing. You're getting that information that's the trick here and you get better and better at it. It's not a guarantee, but it's probably certainly better than what you've been doing. And even if it's a bad date, you've enjoyed something. You learned about this person right, quickly, and you're doing it better and better. That is a great opportunity to hone your skills. It really is. And so do that right, because it's partly going to be you vetting. And then do always use your social circle, please.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

It's a mistake to leave them out. It's a mistake to not make sure you see the new person in their own social environment, to see what it's like. If they say they don't have one, I'd walk away If they say right, you need to have other people vouch for them by watching, by seeing where they belong, right, where they fit, and these are all very smart things to do, because you are vetting somebody to be in the foxhole with you for your life. That's no small thing, that's not trivial, right? What is this person going to do when the when things get rough? Do they have a good moral compass? Do they, you know? Will they speak honestly about why their last relationships didn't work out, or will they just blame the partner? Walk if they do right. That's not somebody you want to be with, um, and so you're looking for someone who who is, who wants to be aware, is aware, wants what you want and is demonstrating it, and is is honest about themselves, including the things that are not swell.

Gretta:

Yeah, absolutely, and choosing you're choosing somebody who's choosing you.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Yes, and it is not what you think it is. It's not about love. Love is not enough, folks, it isn't. It isn't. People have done terrible things in the name of love, and who knows what you mean by love anyway? How do you know your partner thinks the same thing? So it isn't about that. It's about what we do and what we don't do, based on what you and, I believe, we decided is either best or good or the right thing to do. We decide that, we decide that, not anybody else, and we expect the other person, once these are decided, to hold to it, whether they love us or not, whether we love them or not, because we're not safe otherwise, because there are times I'm not going to like you. What's holding me back from treating you badly? Nothing, because we didn't come up with anything Right, and so this is the way to, I think, to think in a world that is primitive still and has always been, probably will always be. It just has the appearance of being civil, and we're starting to see that unravel quite a bit. So that's an illusion. You want to create a civilization of two people that's based on fairness, justice, mutual sensitivity, reliability, transparency, protection first and foremost. Otherwise you're in for a bad time. One more thing, Gretta, can I say something Because you stimulated with the word ghost.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Another thing here there is a common thing, and maybe many of your audience has experienced this you break up with someone someone substantial or they break up with you. There's a time where you are going to be haunted for quite a while and the reason for that goes back to infancy. For that goes back to infancy when our primary attachment figure, which starts in the very beginning, right, the person we depend on most, that person that you fell in love with, that you were in a relationship with committed relationship, is now transferred to them. They are now your primary attachment figure, the adult type. Therefore, when they vacate that chair imagine it's an office of primary right it has a meaning unto itself, but then the person sitting in it has an extra meaning to it, like the office of presidency has a meaning to it. And then there's the person who sits in the chair right. So that person who's sitting in that primary attachment figure chair does not vacate for a long time. The person in your head. Therefore, when you are left abandoned or the relationship breaks up, you're ghosted.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

There is a sense that trying to replace this person is offensive. If you date too soon because you feel like you're with an imposter, you're with an imposter, they're not them, the person who occupied that chair, and so you'll be distracted. You could be in front of the best person that you could be with, but you're turned off because they're in the way, and somehow magical way in your head, they're in the way of your partner returning. This goes back to infancy, when the baby is with a stranger and the mother goes out the door. The baby is able to hold on to an image of the mother or the father and explore the stranger, but then gets angsty because the stranger then becomes an imposter, a villain for the real deal, and becomes very upset that the caregiver isn't there and that the stranger is interfering with the return.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

So that's a very fancy thinking, isn't it? But that's actually how we think in adulthood. When we're left, the real deal has left and anybody else who tries to come in is is getting in the way of the return of that other person, and what happens is that affects everything going forward till we, that seat is vacated, and that's grieving. That's grieving. Friendship that is, you know, taking care of yourself during that time, but that's a very real thing and people who have gone through this may have wondered what that is, and I think that's that's pretty close to what that is. It's an. It's a. It's what we have done since infancy with primaries.

Gretta:

Right, that's incredibly fascinating.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Wow and to share that and people in the distancing group don't experience the same thing. They can replace those easily because of the distancing Right, they're not as affected, but most of us, yeah, we can't Once our favorite dog dies. We just don't run out and get another dog for a while, right?

Gretta:

Yeah, well, wow, this has been so informative and so just brilliant. Thank you for everything. How can people read your book and connect with you? I guess your book and all your other books as well and if people what I'm talking about right now because Wired for Love.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

Well, what I'm talking about right now, because Wired for Love, the earlier books, your Brain on Love, which is audio only co-creating a structure that's real, that not just going in because you love somebody and love will out, right. No, you, you build something that is entirely new, entirely yours and that's really hammered through. You know, talked a lot about in each other's care. So people can reach me at the pact institutecom, that's the , and there they can find all sorts of information , retreats, couples, retreats that my wife and I do in workshops that we're doing constantly, doing constantly online. And if you're in the mental health field, we train people in the mental health field how to do this approach, and that's where this started actually.

Gretta:

That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Stan Tatkin:

It's really my pleasure. I'm so glad to be able to talk about this subject because it is a terrible, terrible, really kind of antisocial trend. It's very, quite antisocial and yet it's it's. Yet people are getting away with it, thinking it's OK.

Gretta:

Yeah, it's not OK and no it's not okay. Yeah, and listeners, I invite you to follow @ C oping with G hosting on social media, to join the free and private C oping W ith G hosting F facebook group and please leave a rating for this show. Your feedback will help other people find me. And finally, when you're ghosted, you have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills. You deserve the best.