Coping With Ghosting

Reclaiming Intimacy: Overcoming the Sex Ghost, with Dr. Katie Stirling

• Gretta

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Join Coach Gretta and Katie Stirling, Clinical Psychologist, Sexologist, and Gottman Certified Couples Therapist, for a compelling discussion on ghosting in intimate relationships. In this show, Dr. Stirling provides gentle guidance on:

  • Being ghosted before becoming physically intimate with a partner
  • Encountering a one-night stand ghost
  • Experiencing ghosting when there's more emotional closeness and bonding after sex
  • Being ghosted after an STD revelation
  • Post-ghost sex: how to let go and enjoy yourself 
  • What to do if the sex ghost returns

We also discuss how to trust again, the complexities of identifying red flags, and the importance of open communication in new relationships. In this conversation, we aim to empower you with resilience and understanding of ghosting's broader effects on intimacy.

Visit Dr. Katie Stirling's Website

Connect With Gretta:
Coping With Ghosting 101
Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah
Disclaimer: This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or other registered professionals. 

Ghosted? We've got you covered. Download Coping With Ghosting 101. This workshop's designed to help you better understand why ghosting happens, ways to feel better now, and actionable steps to take your power back. Your purchase will help support this podcast, so it’s a win-win!

Note to All Listeners: Ghosting is defined as: The practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication (Oxford Languages).
When you leave an abusive situation without saying "goodbye," it's not ghosting, it's "self-protection." When you quietly exit a relationship after a boundary has been violated, it's not ghosting, it's "self-respect."

Gretta:

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted. That provides hope, healing and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted. I'm your host, Gretta, and today my guest and I will discuss the sex ghost. We'll delve into various scenarios, including the impact of being ghosted after a sexual proposition is declined, the experience of someone who hits it and quits it, and the broader effects of ghosting on one's sexual well-being. My guest is Dr. Katie Stirling, clinical psychologist, sexologist and Gottman-certified couples therapist. As a sexologist, Dr. Katie understands the importance of sex positivity and sexual health and the important roles this plays not only in our relationships, but also in our individual wellbeing. Dr. Katie is passionate about connecting people with the knowledge, resources and tools to live the life they want. Welcome, Dr. Katie.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Thank you so much for having me, Gretta, and thank you for that beautiful intro. I think I should get you to write my bio.

Gretta:

Yeah, just copy and paste! What words of comfort do you have for somebody who's struggling because they were ghosted after saying no to sex? And I'm talking about a scenario where maybe people have been dating or hanging out for a little bit, one person wants to have sex and the other person declines.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Yeah, I think this is such an important topic to talk about because, firstly, in terms of words of comfort, I should say, to let you know that you're not alone. You know in your feelings and that a lot of people have been in this scenario and you know this is really hard to kind of process and go through, especially because when we are in a relationship with someone as you said, like there is some kind of connection there, at this point we have established some form of relationship In order to fully understand what's happened, we need to hear the other person's perspective and we're not able to do that, so we're left with a whole bunch of questions which can lead to a whole bunch of assumptions, and it can be really hard to re-establish trust. So, obviously, maybe not trust with that person, but trusting ourselves again and trusting someone new, which is really important. I think, in terms of these particular scenarios where we're talking about early dating and we're talking about communicating our needs and really communicating from a place of our own values, we can really get caught putting the other person in a position of power and giving them all the power, and what I mean by this is in that early stage of dating we get stuck in this place of feeling like we're waiting on the other person to decide if they want to be with us. So, you know, if we're the right person for them, if they feel like we're enough for them, and I think that it's really important that we shift this and rather we need to remember that we are making that decision. So we are deciding if this is the right person, that for us and the person that we want to be with and the person that can meet our needs.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And a huge part of that is getting to know each other, and so something like talking about you know your sexual needs and your desires and what you need to feel safe is an important part of that.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And so when you're communicating, hey, I'm not ready to have sex yet, then obviously we're in a healthy relationship. Someone's going to meet that with compassion. They want you to be safe, they want your needs to be met, and so if that is not happening, this is not the right person for you and this is actually not about you know. Maybe they got to the decision first and they acted first, but this is really not just about their decision. Like, you have the power here to make that choice and you know your decision really is like I have asserted these boundaries, I have asserted my values and my needs in a relationship and if this person isn't willing to meet those, if this person isn't willing to meet my needs or to have a conversation in the very least about meeting my needs, then they are not the right person for me, so they are not your person.

Gretta:

Yes, the person who goes is not your person. I wholeheartedly agree. I wholeheartedly agree. And if you were just saying, no, that's your right and that is okay, and you didn't do anything wrong and it's not your fault, right?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

No, and I think that we like sex is not a given. Like sex is is a decision that you make in terms of like your needs and where you're at, and that can be. It's not about when, because that's a really personal thing. So for someone they might be comfortable to have sex after a month. Some person it might be yeah, for other people it might be like a key milestone, like I'm not ready till I'm engaged or married. That's all fine, because this is about you living a life in alignment with your values and your needs, and so finding the right person is about being able to communicate from that place, because the right person will align with that.

Gretta:

Exactly, thank you. So, moving on to another scenario, what are some reasons that a person would ghost after sleeping with somebody? Only one time after sleeping with somebody?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

only one time. Yes, I think we really need to think about context in ghosting, which is difficult because we have none, because, you know, we have no context of what's happening in this person's world in that moment when they've made that choice. I think sometimes, like we can get caught overthinking about all the scenarios and the reality is like, sometimes things do happen in people's lives, so sometimes something will come up. It's, you know, maybe it's a very early stage of dating that you're talking about and something happens. So they experienced some crisis, or you know, something happens in their life and they're just not able to cope in that moment, and you know, of course the right thing would be to communicate that to you. But for whatever reason they haven't, so that that can happen, but also there can be a number of other reasons. So you know, particularly if we're talking about this as a pattern of behavior for the ghoster, do you call them the ghoster? What do you call?

Gretta:

them, the ghoster and the ghost, the ghost. You got it okay cool.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I'm actually thinking because I often use the word like the betrayer and the person who's been betrayed, the betrayee, so the ghost, um, you know they may have issues with, uh, you know, feeling secure.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

They may be more avoided, they may, um, not be ready for a relationship and they fail to make that clear. They may lack emotional immaturity. And quite often, when I think about, like, the act of ghosting, you know, whatever the context is, is that there's an unwillingness to sit in an uncomfortable conversation, because if they've ghosted, there's obviously some reason, whatever reason that may be, even if that reason is that they're not, whatever reason that may be, even if that reason is that they're not ready or whatever it may be. But the conversation part is the ghosting, you know, the unwillingness to have that conversation, the unwillingness to communicate with that person, and so maybe it is that, for whatever reason, they lack some skills in that area and they need to be able to take responsibility and learn those skills in order to be able to take responsibility and learn those skills, in order to be able to move forward in their own lives as well.

Gretta:

Yeah, I agree with you completely and I think some people might just be on a different page. You're right about the context. Like, for example, if it was a one night stand, maybe somebody was just trying to hit it and quit it, or maybe they just wanted the thrill of the chase and they feel like, okay, now I got it, I can leave. Um, or they're afraid of getting close and quote, catching feelings, that kind of thing.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Yeah, and I think you've raised a really important point there, because we are thinking about, um, you know, people who are acting in a way that's that's relatively kind of healthy and normal, in the sense that, like they've got some fears and they've made some poor choices, versus someone who maybe is actually just trying to do this, so someone who is just having sex with people, not contacting them and just keeping in that pattern, which is obviously an indication of more healthy, maybe kind of narcissistic presentation that we're moving into Right.

Gretta:

If anybody's listening, and this has just happened to you. I'm really sorry that you're going through this, because this can be extraordinarily painful and you feel so vulnerable, like you've just given something to somebody and now they're no longer contacting you. So my heart goes out to anybody who is who is dealing with that.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Absolutely, because what we're talking about is a betrayal of trust, you know. So it's like a trust has been broken and that that has deep wounding effects on us, um, that we want to be able to heal from and move forward. But yeah, it's incredibly hard and you're just left with so many questions that you're trying to figure out, and then you know you might go to that place where you sort of start making excuses almost for the behavior because you don't know the full picture and so you're filling in those blanks. So it's just an incredibly hard place to be, I think, to be sitting in that uncertainty and that unknown.

Gretta:

Yeah, so remember if you are going through this, to not make this about you and to understand that this wasn't again. It wasn't your fault.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Absolutely. I think and that's a hard thing. I think you know, even when someone says that to you, when you're in pain and someone says this isn't about you, it's like no, it is, it absolutely is about you, it's about your feelings, but the behavior is not about you. So that behavior from that person is absolutely them and we may never understand why they did that, but that is about them and you know you could have tried everything, done everything right, even in a way that was like super healing for someone who maybe had like avoided issues, et cetera, and it still would have happened Like there's nothing that you can do to prevent that. The only person that can take action in that space is the person who has ghosted.

Gretta:

Yeah, Thank you for sharing those insights. Those are all such good points. And, moving on to the next scenario, I've heard stories where people ghost after having really fulfilling wonderful sex at the beginning of when they're dating or hanging out, but then they pull away when the relationship progresses to the next level. So why would somebody ghost when there's more emotional closeness, intimacy and bonding?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Yeah good question Because this is slightly different, isn't it, to that early ghosting experience. So you know and it's really interesting because what happens sometimes is when we get into a more secure place in a relationship so where we are actually safe and secure and this is a healthy relationship for us, which is kind of the situation you're describing so we start to become vulnerable, we open up, and then what may happen is this may actually kind of activate our attachment system, because we do step into vulnerability more, we do step into intimacy and that can bring up some past ways of coping. So, even though in this relationship that we are in now it's a healthy, secure relationship, we've had difficult experiences in our past and we've learned ways of coping with that that we now bring into the new relationship and so say, for example, you know this could be like quite an avoidant presentation where we withdraw in those moments. So we step into vulnerability, we open up, we experience that intimacy and that closeness and it all feels a little bit too much and so we withdraw from that situation.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I think this is why, also, it's so important that we do learn to heal from this and regain trust as the person who has been ghosted, which is really hard because this is not our fault. We had nothing to do with the situation itself, but it had an impact on us, of course you know. So being ghosted is going to impact us. It is going to have us questioning things and looking at, you know, can we trust this new person? And maybe reading things into scenarios that aren't there, because we are a little bit sensitive to it. So it's really important that we do that work because we don't want to bring the impact of that ghosting experience into the new relationship in the form of, like, ways that we are coping to protect ourselves that are actually getting in the way of us having our needs met in this new relationship.

Gretta:

I do have an episode on trust, and I would just love to hear any thoughts you have on how to begin trusting again after something like this happens.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Really good question, I think so. The first part is obviously, before we get into a new relationship. So when we're on our own and I think anyone who's been in a situation where we've had trust broken for whatever reason and that's and ghosting is one of those scenarios we need to be able to start trusting ourselves, because what can happen is we get really caught overthinking and thinking you know, maybe I didn't make the right decision Like we start putting the onus on us for the other person's behaviors and we need to recognize, like, firstly, that that wasn't our fault, we had nothing to do with that. That was their behaviors that were separate from us. So there isn't something that we need to change or adjust. I mean, sure there may be. Like, of course, there can be lessons learned and scenarios, but on the whole, this is about the other person and so it isn't something that we could probably even see.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I think one of the difficulties I have, even with things like red flags, is that, like they are great, like it is good to look for behaviors and it is good to look at things like is this person acting in a way that aligns with what they're telling me? All these sort of things are really important in assessing, you know, is someone like a safe, trustworthy person. But one of the issues that I do have with like kind of listing those behaviors is that then we can get so hyper-focused on looking like kind of listing those behaviors is that then we can get so hyper-focused on looking for them. And the reality is, in as you go into a new relationship, people will display their same behaviors for different healthy reasons, because when you are dating, we all feel a little bit insecure, so we might come across, say, for example, as unreliable or we might do something that could also be an unhealthy kind of presentation or a red flag, but also just maybe, hey, I'm just feeling a little bit vulnerable, a little bit insecure, and so I'm not acting in ways that 100% myself at the moment, if that makes sense. So I think it's really important that, yeah, coming back to that point, that we've learned to trust ourselves, trust our instincts, instincts and really tune into like I can trust myself this happened, but that's not a reflection on me and I and I have to learn to trust myself and not get caught in overthinking every relationship and every person's behaviors.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And then I think there's a second piece, actually, when we get into the new relationship and I think there's a lot of misconceptions around this like, oh well, that's not the responsibility of the new person to heal this thing that happened in my past. The reality is like we all come to relationships with experiences. We all come to relationships having gone through difficult things and we all come to relationships with things like coping modes and possibly some insecurity and, of course, like the onus that is on us to work through those things, but also that we can heal in these new contexts and our partners understanding of that and supporting us. So maybe you know, for example, we have some sensitivity around. When they don't respond within a day, that's okay, that's a perfectly normal response after you've been ghosted.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

But it's about the communication about that with your partner and being open with them about, hey, like I went through this experience, so this is a trigger for me, and your partner, who cares and loves you, doesn't say, oh well, that's not my responsibility, I didn't do that behavior. They sort of say, okay, I totally get that. Like that makes sense to me that you would have this sensitivity around when I switched my phone off because I'm at work all day. How can we work around this. You know how can we meet your needs in this and how can we make sure that you feel secure and okay in the relationship, because we also need to rebuild the trust in the new relationship context.

Gretta:

Right, absolutely. This person needs to, I would say, prove themselves to you that they're trustworthyin every morning or every night via text. That's what's going to help me feel secure in this relationship. Does that work for you? And if they say yes and then they don't follow through on that, I wouldn't really trust that they're able to show up consistently to this relationship. So it's kind of like okay, let me set a boundary and then have you demonstrate that, like you can respect my, my needs.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Absolutely, and I love the way that you raise that, because there's a difference between, like, putting the onus and the responsibility for our past hurts on a new partner to heal them, versus us saying like, hey, these are my needs and expressing that in a positive need way and so sort of saying like this is what I need in a relationship to feel safe and secure and to establish trust. And so then you are establishing that boundary of like okay, so this is what I need to meet this. And then what happens if this isn't there? And maybe it is a second conversation, like, maybe it is then okay. So I want to be clear, because I think the thing we can fall into sometimes is just giving people one chance, and the reality is is that sometimes we're not even clear in our expectations, even though we think we are.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So you know, I find quite often in couples therapy, when we come back to that need and we get really clear on what the need is, the second partner just didn't understand it. There wasn't any malicious intent there. They just didn't really get what it meant, what it looked like or the reason why behind it. Because that why is really important, that why of like, how much this means to me. It is important for someone to understand, so it's that ongoing someone to understand, so it's that ongoing conversation, I think, around you, expressing your needs and getting clarity, and then, of course, if this behavior becomes a pattern, then that's when we say, okay, this isn't the relationship for me.

Gretta:

I like that. It's a very compassionate outlook, and I also just want to point out that I just love what you were saying about red flags as well. That was such a fresh perspective and I really appreciate it yeah, it's a tough one because I get it, we all.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

No one wants to get hurt, so we want to have this checklist of like, if I can see these five behaviors. I know that this, this relationship, isn't safe for me, but we can be so sensitive to those behaviors that we don't give the person the opportunity to explain the behavior or the why behind it, and sometimes it is a one-off, or sometimes there is something there that we need to work on in the relationship. That's not saying ignore, you know like ignore poor behavior. We definitely don't want to do that. We want to be clear, as you said, around our expectations and our boundaries as well.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

But yeah, we need to, we need to look at. I think also to be focusing on the green flags is really important, like focusing on what you do want, and part of that what you do want is someone who responds to your needs, someone who is willing to do the work, who says, hey, like I get this, I get that, this is a thing for you. So, like, how can I make you feel safe, like this makes sense to me that you feel this way. That person who's willing to step into those uncomfortable conversations, who's willing to navigate through, who's willing to do the work that you might need to learn new skills or whatever it may be. Change the way they interact to meet your needs is really important.

Gretta:

Yeah, everything you said made a lot of sense. I have a scenario inspired by one of my listeners that I'd like to ask about. Why might someone choose to cut off all communication after receiving news that their partner of one year has an STD?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So many scenarios, isn't it? I think this is the hard thing to answer questions sometimes is? There's obviously context to it, but I'm going to give some examples of why that might happen, because I think when we're thinking about, like, they've disclosed the STD after a year, it's sort of like, did they know, did they withhold that information, which then obviously may be like a trust response on the person who's just received this information that they felt their trust has been broken. Um, so I think there could be many different reasons, but I think one of the overarching writing emotions is likely to be fear. So fear, fear again, which could have many reasons. It might be the fear of losing someone, so, like, is this a serious health condition? They might have fears around that there might be a fear that their partner has betrayed them. So if they haven't spoken about it yet, this fear of like, okay, well, where did the STD come from? And then again, jumping to those assumptions that the person has cheated without talking to them about you know what's happened and where this has developed a fear of getting sick themselves.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So I think that there can be so many fears that come up in a situation like that and so obviously, that trust can be experienced on both ends. That betrayal of trust in that moment but obviously not everyone who experiences a scenario like this or some kind of disclosure will ghost, and I think this comes back to that thing around sitting in uncomfortable conversations is a willingness to say hey, like someone's taught. My partner, who I love and have been with you said for some some time, has told me something that has brought up uncomfortable emotion for me, and maybe some of that uncomfortable emotion is fear, or it might be disappointment or hurt or betrayal or whatever it is, and it's that willingness to step into that conversation. So, again, I think it's obviously about, like, what's happening for them in that moment is that there's something getting in the way of them sitting in that uncomfortability. I mean it could be things like they do have more of an avoidant attachment styles, that vulnerability has come up and their natural way of coping is to withdraw from the scenario. It could be just a total loss of how to navigate through this and I think you know something I do want to highlight is that I think a lot of people lack a lot of relationship skills, like I think that we think we're we all think we're really good at relationships, myself included, but I'll have my moments where I'm imperfect and I'm just me.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I'm just Katie, I'm a human and you know I'm finding something difficult to navigate, and that's when we fall back on those relationship skills. And you know, one of the things I'm really passionate about is making sure that everyone can have access to learning those skills, because a lot of people didn't learn these skills growing up, and I think even more so for men because I think, as females, we've had a lot of opportunity to develop these skills. In our friendships, you know, we open up more to our friends, we're vulnerable with our friends, we are there for our friends, we're sat in their high emotion. We talk on more an emotional level. This is not to say that men don't or shouldn't do this. They absolutely should and some men do.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

But the reality is that a lot of men haven't had this opportunity. So when they face these kinds of scenarios, they feel so lost and overwhelmed. They shut down and they withdraw because they don't know how to sit in vulnerability. They don't know how to sit in that uncomfortable conversation. And the saddest part of that is that it's quite often not even an unwillingness to. It's just this complete overwhelm of I don't know how to you know, and feeling like a failure and feeling like there is no other option. So I think it's really important that when we face these difficult scenarios, that we can lean into that uncomfortability, and I think part of that is learning the skills to have those kinds of conversations and to regulate ourselves and to be able to stay in that moment with our partner.

Gretta:

Yeah, absolutely. I could see how this could be really scary for somebody, depending especially on what type of STD it is.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And we can so easily jump to assumptions, can't we, like you know, we've already created that story of why, without even having the conversation, and the further we go down that narrative on our own, like this is so important, I think, in all aspects of relationships is to stop that mind reading, because when we start making assumptions, it's not just that we're thinking about this stuff, it's we're feeling all the emotion of it, you know. So we're thinking, oh, my partner's betrayed me or this has happened, and we're bringing all that emotion up and we're feeling that emotion as if these things have happened. So we're going through all this pain without having had the conversation with our partner to find out what is happening and to find out how maybe we can work through this together, if that's possible.

Gretta:

Yeah, absolutely, are you ready to feel happier and more at peace after being ghosted? With Coping with Ghosting 101, you'll find the support and strategies you need to move forward confidently. This downloadable video workshop and workbook, created with my friend and fellow coach SDK, is everything I wish I had when I was first ghosted. Inside, you'll uncover the reasons behind ghosting and learn powerful strategies to reclaim your confidence and sense of self. Don't let ghosting hold you back any longer. If you're ready to take your power back and move forward, visit copingwithghosting. com for more information. One of my listeners reached out and asked how can I get back into pleasurable sex after being ghosted? I'm in a new relationship with somebody I've known for a long time and I trust him, but now I'm unable to derive any significant pleasure from or in sexual relations.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Really good question and so important. Um, and I think it comes back to a little bit about what we were talking about earlier, about establishing trust in the new relationship. So you know, when we think about intimacy, that emotional safety is fundamental. I mean, it's more important for some people than it is for others, but obviously for this listener it sounds like it's very important that we need to have that emotional safety and that trust established in the relationship. And the difficult part of this is is that it's not because of this new partner. You know, as we're talking about, it is because of this past experience, but we still need to heal this in the new relationship.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So I guess my suggestion would be being able to talk to your partner about that and being able to talk to them about, like, what you may need to start working on establishing that trust outside of the bedroom and then again, like as you're in the bedroom, like it might be that you need to take things slow, it may be that there's certain things that you need in that moment or things that you need to hear, or maybe it's a lot more reassurance or, I think also importantly, given that we're talking about the context of ghosting and a lot of that's about what happens after. So also knowing like what, being very clear with your partner about your needs after sex. So what do I need from you in this moment after we have sex? Is there some reassurance that I need or some check-ins that I need? So really, I think we can get caught thinking this is being like needy or putting this on our partner. It's not. It's actually setting our partner up for success, because they want to meet our needs. They just don't know how to do that. So they don't know how to help you through that process.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So it's getting really clear with them about what that looks like.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And sometimes that obviously takes a bit of reflecting in ourselves and thinking about what do we need?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And then, in terms of the physical, I would also say things like you know, on a more practical level is being able to kind of get a little bit more in touch with your body.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Perhaps if you are finding you know they may not, but I'm thinking they may be getting a little bit stuck in the kind of thinking mode and running through all the scenarios and there may be some anxiety there and some fear so really important that you are kind of regulating yourself and, you know, learning some skills to kind of ground yourself or some breathings to kind of bring you back to that present moment to maybe manage anxiety or fear or whatever it is that you're feeling, to that present moment to maybe manage anxiety or fear or whatever it is that you're feeling in that particular moment. But I think the key thing here is to remember that it's this is a partnership with this person, so it's not something you can do just on your own, and I think people can get really caught thinking oh, this is something I have to deal with and I kind of need to go go away and deal with that and get myself together.

Gretta:

You know that's in italics for the people listening, um, but it is about, like communication and this new relationship as well, navigating through this together I really feel for this person who asked this question, because I can only imagine how hard this is and what a psychological block it is to fully let go after being ghosted.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So and I think key to that. Thank you for saying that, cause I think he's like really taking your time. I think the worst thing that we can do is push ourselves forward, for us and for the new partner, because then we can end up blaming our new partner in that scenario, just feeling kind of icky about that sexual experience, and that's not what it's about. It's, you know, it's about feeling pleasure and so taking your time and communicating with your partner and not putting pressure on yourself around. That is really important, no matter what the reason. Like, it's really important that we do those things. Um, so yeah, I'm glad you raised that, because it is so important to have that self-compassion in those moments.

Gretta:

Do you have any suggestions for ways people can avoid being ghosted after sex? I know it's impossible to be like to avoid being ghosted 100%, but is there anything people could possibly do or say to lessen the likelihood of this happening?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

yeah, I think it's a hard one because, again, we don't want to put the onus on the person who is being, who has been ghosted or who is worried about being ghosted in the future, because this is really about the other person's behaviors. I think the only thing I would suggest is obviously slow down. Slow things down because, with time is the only way that we can really get a sense of who someone is. So, you know, at the start of a relationship, someone can tell us a lot of nice things. There's a lot of amazing chemicals running through our body, um that you know are great, but that can kind of blindside us a little bit in terms of seeing some of um, maybe like the signs that someone isn't maybe as trustworthy as they say they are. So I think it's really about, like, the time piece is having the time for people to show you who they are rather than tell you who they are. So to get to know them, to see that consistency, to see that they're the kind of person that shows up, to see that they're the kind of person that's willing to sit in an uncomfortable situation, I would say that's that's probably one of the biggest keys, isn't it? We're thinking about.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

The actual ghosting part is really that is this person when things get tough or when something happens, are they willing to sit in uncomfortability and have uncomfortable conversations? Are they willing to do the work that's needed to have a healthy relationship? So looking for those kind of things I think is helpful and that process of kind of slowing things down. But you know, as we talked about before, I think it's really hard to say there's this five-point checklist that every ghoster is going to have these particular behaviours. Of course, there's things, like you know, being unreliable when things aren't matching up, and that's where I think the time comes in is really looking at, you know, do their behaviours match up with what they're saying to us is kind of one way that we can assess that. I guess, for want of another word, I think those are great insights.

Gretta:

So actions are aligned with words. And also, if you're somebody who's really concerned about being ghosted, especially being ghosted after sex, try to spend as much time with this person outside of a bedroom, outside of fancy constructed dinner dates, outside of really fun scenarios, and go like do laundry with this person, go shopping with this person, go on a trip or a really hard hike with this person. Just get out of like the fantasy land and see them in the real world and also just keep in the back of your mind that, okay, if I do have sex with this person and they do ghost me, how would I feel? And just to like get really clear on that with yourself. Like I think sometimes we have to take a risk, like as people who have been ghosted, we have to. So the risk is I might, you know, within any relationship it might not work out, but I I want to move forward with this because I think overall they seem like it's worth. Like it seems like it's worth it.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Absolutely. I think that's that's such an important point. That last point, and like going back to the first part, you said, yes, we want to see them across these contexts so we can assess the behavior. We want to see how they operate outside of, like the dating environment, the nice, shiny environment. We want to see them in the difficult times. We want to see them when they're frustrated so we can get a sense of who they are and how they respond to uncomfortability and how they respond to kind of meeting our needs in those contexts.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

But the other part you said is so important around risk and being willing to sit in some of that risk.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Because the reality is, when we go into a new relationship, there is always going to be vulnerability and there is always going to be an element of unfortunately, this could happen again or in some different form, our trust could be broken in some other way, and this is the hard thing about relationships. Relationships require that vulnerability. We need that vulnerability for connection but equally, as you're sort of saying, we need to be able to kind of decide who we give that to. You know, who am I allowing in, who am I willing to share with? And sex is one part of that, but there's also, like you know, who am I allowing in, who am I willing to share with, and sex is one part of that, but there's also, like you know, other parts of our inner worlds that we're sharing with this person. So it's really identifying like I'll be at that stage and do I feel like I can trust this person, that they can respond in the way that I need them to. So, yeah, it's so important. Those two really go hand in hand.

Gretta:

What would you recommend listeners do if the sex ghost returns and wants to rekindle a relationship?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Slow down. Look, I think you've really got to assess the situation. I don't think it's such a personal decision as to whether you go back into that relationship and I don't think there's any hard yes or no. Like people make mistakes, things happen. People are willing to learn and grow and I'm a huge believer in that. That. You know, obviously, we can all make mistakes, we're all imperfect, and it's about our willingness to own that, to take responsibility for that, and that responsibility is, firstly, like being able to see that that behavior is not okay. So we definitely want to see that. We want to see them owning the impact of that behavior, and part of that is is which is really hard to do in this scenario, as you're still establishing trust but for you to be able to share the impact that had and how much it did hurt you, and for them to be able to sit in that, which is key because in that, what they are doing is sitting in a highly uncomfortable situation, right, which is part of kind of the flip side of the ghosting and not being willing to sit in uncomfortability. So you want to see that they can sit in that, that they can sit in you talking about the pain you experienced and they can take responsibility for that impact, they can own their behavior, they can recognize the impact that it had on you. It's such an important starting point for moving forward Because if you do decide to go back into that relationship, we are talking about reestablishing trust, you know, which is going to take some time and it's going to take some energy.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

It's going to take some effort. You know on their part, but also on yours, like you're actually going to have to do a lot of work in this, unfortunately as well, to re-establish that trust. It's not easy. So you really want to see that you know, can this person own the impact? Can they take responsibility? Are they willing to do what it takes to re-establish that trust?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

And that's you being clear again and and that will you know, it will take some figuring out, like you won't have kind of a roadmap for like, okay, these are the five step thing plan that you need to do to reestablish that trust. There will be things that you need immediately and there may be things that you need one month down the track, two months down the track, five months down the track. So it's their willingness to step up in that moment and say, yeah, like I own this completely and I get this is the impact of that choice that I made that behavior. So I'm willing to do whatever it takes to earn that trust back, and so that process is really important. So it's importantly if you want to get back with someone, it's not about glossing over it, it's not about not having the conversation about it and trying to just move forward. The way we move forward is that we have to work through it If we're going to really establish a trusting relationship. Moving forward.

Gretta:

Oh, I agree, it's more than a sorry and also it's a willingness to be like what can I do? How can I make this right? I also want to say that if the sex ghost returns and was like I ghosted because you did or because you were, that's a hard do not let them back into your life, cause it wasn't your fault.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

There's not responsibility. Yeah, and there's no insight there, right? So, like it's, it's taking responsibility is like and particularly when we're talking about this scenario, we're not talking about a scenario where, of course, in relationships, we're going to have events that happen where we both own a little bit of it, but this is a choice that they made and left you with no choice. So it really is necessary that they take responsibility for that and they own that. And, as you said, if they're pushing that blame on back onto you, which we call defensiveness, then they're not taking responsibility. And so why it's so important to us?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Because this is about you knowing and this actually not happening again. So the only way you're going to know that and the only way you're going to start to re-establish trust with them is if they can fully own it and you can see that they do get it. If they don't get it, then they're at risk of doing the same behavior again. So they need to understand it, they need to see the behavior, they need to see the impact that it's had and they need to be willing to make the changes so this doesn't happen again. And that process, the whole process of that, in itself is sitting in uncomfortability and is self-disclosure, is them communicating their feelings as well.

Gretta:

So that is the stuff that's going to prevent them from ghosting the future, because they have the skills, they've sat in that space and you can see that they can do that recently I saw a pose that said something along the lines of I would take a ghost back, but only after they've done like at least a year of therapy and I get a note from their therapist and I was like, oh, that's so smart.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I don't know if the therapist would give that note right, but I would say honestly, I would say this may say sound really counterintuitive. I would say do couples therapy, because this isn't about responsibility, this is about the capacity to work through this together and, yes, they can go off and they can do that therapy and yep, they probably should, because there's things that they need to work on on their own. But in terms of the relationship, in terms of re-establishing trust, you can only do that with two people and it can be really hard to navigate that space when you're hurt. So I think it's. I would actually really suggest, in that that instance, doing couples therapy to to make sure and your therapist will take you through that process of reestablishing trust that they are willing to sit in that uncomfortability with you, that they are willing to take action, they're willing to go through therapy Like, they're willing to do these things to rebuild that trust with you.

Gretta:

Yeah, that's great advice. I like that a lot. What healing tips and suggestions do you have for people who've encountered a sex ghost of any kind?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I think, be so compassionate to yourself. You know, I think that when we're in that space, we can get stuck in the kind of problem solution mode, like black and white kind of. We want to find the answers right and so, because we don't have the other person there who we can get the answers from, we start seeking them within ourselves and thinking, oh, maybe I did this or I did that or it could have been this part of me. We need to stop that and just be really kind and compassionate towards ourselves and unfortunately, we won't know those answers of why that happened. But that why isn't about us, that why is about them?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So, you know, we really need to be kind to ourselves, be compassionate to ourselves, and I think this is the really hard part of healing is that we need to be willing to be vulnerable again, like and that's really tricky, but it's so important as we go into a new relationship and I'm not talking about straight away and I'm not talking about like the first time we go into a relationship we like completely bear our souls and let them in.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

We still need boundaries, we still need to take care of ourselves in all relationships, but it is about, you know, having a willingness to kind of see that person as their own person and to try and not bring that filter in and see them through the lens of someone who has ghosted and those kinds of behaviors and give this relationship a chance by being willing to be vulnerable, by willing to step into it, as we talked about, doing all those things like at a pace that's healthy and helpful to us. But being willing to be vulnerable, I think, is probably the hardest part of the full healing process, which probably to some degree only really happens as we move into that new relationship and we have to open up again and it's so worth it, so worth it and you know, when you find that person who is able to give you all those things, that safety, that security, and have that healthy relationship, that person who's willing to meet your needs, like it's hard but it's so worth that vulnerability.

Gretta:

Yeah. Is there anything else that you'd like to share about this topic?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

I think just to reiterate that point and I know I've said it a few times, but I think it's so important to realize that this isn't about you and that we can, of course, in any situation that happens in life where something happened to us, we can learn from that.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

But it's really important that we don't put the focus of this learning on this is something I need to change or I need to do things differently.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Maybe sometimes there is there that is the case, that there's something we need to take away and implement, but on the whole, like this is not about us, this is about them, and so I think, when we go down that path, we can start changing in ways that are actually really unhelpful to us. Like we can start changing in ways that are actually really unhelpful to us. Like we can shut our emotions off or, you know, we can decide to become too independent in a way that we're not willing to allow someone new in. So it's really hard, but being able to recognize that this isn't about us, but also that we need to actually do the work to be able to move forward and trust again, which is incredibly unfair, but is the reality of us being able to go into a new healthy relationship and be able to express our feelings and communicate our needs and get what we want out of that new healthy relationship.

Gretta:

Yeah, I agree and I think, as people do the work as I have in my past to be able to trust again and to be able to fully open up and be vulnerable to new people, even after being ghosted. It's it's like the creation of a new you and it feels really good and like there's yeah, there's going to be a scar on your heart, but your heart is still whole and you are still complete and you're still worthy of love and good things will happen when you do the work. It is challenging, but it there are rewards at the end of that tunnel.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Absolutely and I think really important that, like we we check in with, like the, the solid supports in our life and you know we have those people in our lives that can help us see that as well sometimes and give us, like, I think, um, constructive, helpful feedback as we move into dating and as we might get caught kind of shutting ourselves off or coping, which is a natural. The challenge here is it's a very natural response right like to to want to kick into that self-preservation mode, to want to stop ourselves from getting hurt. But the unfortunate part of that is it can also stop us from getting the relationship that we want, getting our needs met. So it's that fine balance of like having my boundaries taking care of myself, you know, not rushing into things, but then also having this willingness to open up and let someone new in and the people who love us in our lives, who can give us that kind of like.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Hey, like a bit of perspective sometimes, when we slam the brakes on when we don't need to and can say, hey, like you know, this guy seems pretty nice and you know they've got to know them too. Like maybe you can start to let them in a little bit and soften some of those edges a little bit. Um, because this, this person, from everything you're telling me and like you know you trusting yourself and having those conversations, I think it can be really helpful as well just to have that extra support conversations.

Gretta:

I think it can be really helpful as well just to have that extra support.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Yeah, for sure. How can listeners connect with you so they can find me on Instagram or YouTube at Dr. Katie Stirling, and I have lots of very practical kind of videos on YouTube, so lots of strategies and communication tips and all those sort of things and a free communication course, actually, because I think this stuff is so important. I think learning those skills around communication which is obviously probably a little bit more directed at the ghostie, ghost or Ghost or but we all need to learn those skills to have hard conversations. We need to learn those skills to have hard conversations. We need to learn those skills to communicate our needs. We need to learn those skills to express what it is.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

We feel this stuff is so important and I think it's something that many of us have not learnt or need to relearn at certain points in our lives in different ways. So I think it's fundamental that we learn those skills and we keep drawing on those skills and pulling them into our lives and new and different ways. So, um, yeah, so definitely there's loads of free, free resources there, or you can check out my website, which is drkatiestillingcom, for info on things like my retreats or online programs.

Gretta:

I love it, and can you tell listeners where you are?

Dr. Katie Stirling:

So I'm in Bali, so we moved here about two years ago. I'm Australian and yeah, we had a busy COVID time, as everyone did, I'm sure, in our field of psychology with a psychology practice, and so after that we closed our practice and we decided to move to Bali and I'd been doing couples retreats for some time so for years and decided to go solely in that direction. So I do sort of immersive therapy retreats where I spend a whole weekend with a couple doing therapy, or sometimes it's more of like a fun kind of group retreat sort of setting where it's more preventative and learning these skills so that we can have these amazing relationships, and learning the skills to navigate through roadblocks even before maybe we're confronted with them, which is really important. But yeah, I'm very lucky to live in Bali. It's absolutely beautiful, it's such a beautiful culture and just a beautiful place to be really.

Gretta:

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing about that. Well, thank you so much for being here. This has been amazing.

Dr. Katie Stirling:

Yeah, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed the conversation. It's such an interesting, difficult topic and, I think, one that probably doesn't get enough attention, to be honest, that we don't talk about, and people go through this and they kind of hide it away because they're feeling some shame around that, which is not their shame to own, but that's the reality of what they're feeling, and so when we feel that way, we tend to not talk about it, and I love that you've created a whole podcast just to focus on this topic and look at it from the many different angles and explore different ways of moving through or dealing with it or just understanding the experience that people go through.

Gretta:

Thank you and listeners, please follow me on social media, leave a review for this podcast and finally, remember when you're ghosted. You have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills. You deserve the best.