Coping With Ghosting

Ghosting, Gender Dynamics, and Emotional Recovery From Ghosting

• Gretta • Season 1 • Episode 70

Share episode

Explore the complex world of dating and love ghosting and its ties to gender and relationships with host and coach Gretta Perlmutter and guest Aaron Karmin, author and psychotherapist. Delve into how societal norms and communication pitfalls contribute to ghosting, and understand the unique challenges different genders and identities face.

Topics covered include:

  • Why do women ghost men? Why do men ghost women? A deeper look at how gender dynamics can influence ghosting.
  • Ghosting within the LGBTQ+ community.
  • How past experiences of invisibility can amplify the emotional impact of being ghosted.
  • Emotional recovery from ghosting: tools and strategies for healing after being ghosted.

Aaron Karmin is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor based in Chicago, Illinois, with over twenty years of experience. He is a Gottman Seven Principles Program Educator, a certified clinical hypnotherapist, and holds an advanced certification in stress management. Aaron is the author of The Anger Management Workbook for Men and Instant Anger Management: Quick and Simple CBT Strategies to Diffuse Anger on the Spot.  Connect with Aaron Karmin, LCPC at karmincounseling.com

Connect With Gretta:
Coaching Sessions
Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com
Coping with Ghosting offers high-value 1:1 coaching with Vogue-featured expert Gretta Perlmutter, delivering evidence-based strategies that transform personal betrayal into a powerful catalyst for change. Gretta’s platform empowers individuals from diverse backgrounds to heal, build renewed confidence, and experience breakthrough personal growth.

Studies Referenced:
Forbes Health Ghosting Study
Thriving Center of Psychology

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah

Disclaimer: This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or other registered professionals. 

Support the show

Ghosted? We've got you covered. Download Coping With Ghosting 101. This workshop's designed to help you better understand why ghosting happens, ways to feel better now, and actionable steps to take your power back. Your purchase will help support this podcast, so it’s a win-win!

Note to All Listeners: Ghosting is defined as: The practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication (Oxford Languages).
When you leave an abusive situation without saying "goodbye," it's not ghosting, it's "self-protection." When you quietly exit a relationship after a boundary has been violated, it's not ghosting, it's "self-respect."

Gretta:

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted. I'm your host, Gretta, and today I'm exploring the intersections of gender sexuality and ghosting in dating and relationships with my guest, aaron Karman. Aaron's a licensed clinical professional counselor based in Chicago, illinois, with over 20 years of experience. He's a Gottman Seven Principles Program educator, certified clinical hypnotherapist and holds an advanced certification in stress management. Aaron's also the author of the Anger Management Workbook for Men an instant anger management quick and simple CBT strategies to diffuse anger on the spot. His approach focuses on identifying physical cues, recognizing thoughts, considering consequences, implementing solutions, choosing behaviors and promoting expression. Thank you for joining me, aaron.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have this opportunity to have a conversation.

Gretta:

Me too, and I just want to share something with new listeners that I use the Oxford Dictionary's definition of the word ghosting for my podcast, and it's the practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication, and so this is different than leaving an abusive situation without a goodbye or disappearing after a boundary has been violated. So, just to kick things off, erin, I'd like to share some of the stats I found on male versus female ghosting and dating, and this is from a 2023 Forbes Health One Poll survey that polled 5,000 people in the United States who had actively dated at some point during the last five years, and the results showed that 60% of daters had been ghosted and 45% say they've ghosted someone else, so 44% of males and 47% of women admitted to ghosting someone else. I just want to point out that this study didn't define ghosting in the same way that I do. It actually said that people could ghost when they're scared or intimidated by the person, and it showed that 10% of males and 13% of women ghosted for those specific reasons. But still, I think overall, the study is very interesting.

Gretta:

And then I have one more study, which is from the Thriving Center of Psychology and they surveyed a thousand millennials and Gen Zs and they found that 69% of women had ghosted someone and 61% of men had ghosted someone. And again, the definition of the word ghosting it may differ from the one that I use in the podcast. So I just wanted to share that and just to kick things off and get started. I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that. But my first real question is gender is complex and our understanding of it is evolving. So how do ghosting behaviors intersect with the complexity of people's gender identities and how those play out in diverse kinds of relationships?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Well, you know, I find that research, that information is shared, compelling because it kind of tracks a lot of the work I do with my clients. I work with primarily individuals and couples and I hear all across the relationship spectrum, whether it's the people dating or they're engaged, they're divorcing, they're on second relationships or reconciling with old relationships all different kinds of populations of people. And I think that you know there's a line my friend told me is like you know, gender doesn't have a monopoly on crappy behavior, that there are people who are just going to be avoidant or selfish or, you know, maybe they're hurt, there's trauma, there's a lot of reasons why people avoid having a conversation when they're ready to break up, and I feel like there is not just going to be one answer, just like one shoe doesn't fit everyone's foot. There isn't one answer and I appreciate that. You know there's so many complexities that are going to be nuances that are going to be part of this conversation. So I'm going to speak as a straight, cisgendered white male who comes at this from working as a psychotherapist with over 20 years of experience, but no way is this going to be representative of all people from all walks of life, and so I just want to be very clear about that kind of perspective I'm offering.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

You know, I think that there's a lot of experiences that people have with core communication and that informs a little bit of how they're managing their emotions. Part of that is, you know, again coming with identity, and so gender obviously plays a huge part in how we are socialized and how we interact with people around us. And there's, you know's, some component of men policing men, women policing women about what is appropriate behavior. How do we respond to these kind of situations of loss or feeling dehumanized, or people being insensitive, or just feeling unloved or even feeling attacked, where someone is being I don't want to even judge the behavior, but someone's feeling attacked, and it ultimately leads to these feelings where we're devalued.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And that experience of being devalued is really how, unfortunately, humans are able, I think, to treat each other with less respect and dignity. Because we don't see a person as a complex, unique individual, it's easy to do terrible things to that person, and whether we're talking emotional things, we're talking abusive things, we're talking all kinds of unfortunate human behavior, and therein lies the hurt that comes from being ghosted, the pain that arises. A lot of people have experiences with feeling invisible, and I think that is fueling some gender dynamics, whether we're talking the trans community, whether we're talking about people who have different kind of identity issues, whether we're talking about people who are coming at this from being marginalized in lots of different ways. And when we get ghosted, all of those pre-existing kind of emotional concerns get amplified. And so a lot of those reactions are also connected not just to the current moment but to our historical experiences.

Gretta:

Yeah, I agree, I understand, and people tend to personalize it. So being ghosted doesn't reveal anything about the person who's being ghosted, but often it reveals how they feel about themselves, and their reactions tell that story Right.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Right and there is, unfortunately, systemic oppression, whether we're talking in gender or race or sexual identity. There's been things that have been amplified. I think COVID really did impact about how we connect and how we relate, or our sense of commitment and belonging to each other, rather than just thinking about what we need to do to protect ourselves. And I think you know, again, technology has also played a hand in this, where it's a lot easier to ghost somebody technology-wise, because I think you, I think so much of our communication isn't. The old days, talking on the phone was the only way, and now, talking on the phone, there must be something very serious that we need to have a phone call, and so technology kind of creates a space for miscommunication and also for the absence of communication, because there's so many reasons why technology fails us and there's so much reliance on technology to be the bridge that connects us.

Gretta:

Yeah, I agree, you could just swipe onto the next person. Just keep on going. Just who cares about their failings? You don't know them, you don't know their family, you don't know like. You're anonymous, basically, on these dating apps, so why even care?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Like empathy levels have really dropped Right and I think in there it's easier to hide, it's easier to withdraw. Yeah, excuse me, to put that kind of boundary in place Now, sometimes it's appropriate. We need that boundary because, again, it's different kinds of relationships. People can feel threatened. It's like, well, you know, I tried to talk to this person and they weren't accepting the fact that we were going to break up. So therein lies a different kind of definition of ghosting and therein lies a different kind of experience where I think a lot of what is hurtful is just that again you don't even respect me enough to communicate that feeling of loss of dignity, that feeling dehumanized that really starts to push people emotionally to some really desperate places.

Gretta:

Yeah, it's so painful to be ghosted. It's one of the hardest things that I think we can go through in terms of relationships. It's soul crushing and you just think, was that even real? Did they even care? Like? I just feel invisible. I feel like I don't even matter.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And there's an unfairness, an injustice. I've invested my time, my effort, my energy, my emotion, my attention and we all want some ROI, some return on our investment, even if it is just the courtesy of like, hey, you know, like this isn't, I'm not feeling this, I'm not feeling that connection, but having some maturity, having some, I guess, confidence that I can deliver that message. But unfortunately a lot of people aren't taught how to be confrontational. Confrontational doesn't have to be aggressive. Confrontational is like you know, hey, I don't like this. That's kind of letting people know and that can be a boundary. But I believe in, you know, confrontation being a healthy thing because it doesn't have to involve aggression, it doesn't have to involve being mean.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Again, it's the behaviors that become problematic, not only the feelings. Feelings like fingers and toes. That's kind of. What makes us human is we all have the same core feelings. So regardless of our background, our identities, our sexuality, the same human emotional experiences deserve to be recognized. And when we feel again, I'm not worth the time, the effort, the energy, the attention, that is really degrading and that feeling, then what do I do with it? Because now this person has cut off from me and I'm just left to sit with that. And there's this grief, the shock, the sadness, the anger, the bargaining, those stages of grief and acceptance, and there's these kind of ways that we are grieving. And again, we all had loss in our life, whether it's a person, opportunity, an experience, a relationship. And so grief today from grief in the past. On an emotional level, on a biological level, it's very triggering because your heart metaphorically doesn't know about, today or yesterday, this person or that person, so it only compounds that pain of loss.

Gretta:

I've really struggled with the grief of oh, I thought I had a future with this person. I'm mourning my future.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Number one. One of the number one answers I hear from clients is like I'm not just losing the relationship, but is that the runway we built, going forward, the life we imagined, the vision of the future that we had shared? And now it feels like I'm again. I'm back to square one, even though we don't lose the experience. It's easy to feel like I'm not getting return on this investment and this thing was being taken from me and so it's almost this violation, and that just leaves people in this very vulnerable space. And then what do I do with that vulnerable experience? And that's really where I think it helps to kind of lean into the community. There's friends, there's family, there's a therapist, there's lots of other people, because this is not, unfortunately, unique to one person. It's unfortunately very common, right, as those stats prove.

Gretta:

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've only met a very small handful of people who say, oh, I haven't ever been ghosted. And I just think, like, is that really true? And some of those people have come back to me months later and been like oh yeah, I just remembered I actually was ghosted, but it's like they block that part out of their memory because it was like almost so traumatic. They just kind of compartmentalize it.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Sure, and that's, you know, in my world we call it disassociation, like you kind of. Like, you know, remove yourself like this time and place and space in your life it's like, and we almost kind of block it out because it helps protect us from this pain. And it's actually a very normal way of dealing with what we would call trauma in my line of work and it's to say, well, breakup's not traumatic, but it very much can be, not always, but a lot of especially ghosting amplifies the likelihood of this trauma because it's unresolved grief Excuse me, it's unresolved grief.

Gretta:

Yeah, so In your work, what gender and sexual orientation differences have you encountered related to ghosting?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

The differences are pronounced when it comes to like I think a lot of men and how they feel emotionally disengaged and being uncomfortable, being vulnerable, and I think, again, a lot of that can come from. These are sweeping generalizations I'm going to preface that once again of men feeling uncomfortable, being emotionally vulnerable. And a lot of men are socialized to be tough and to be strong, and even male identifying clients that I've worked with kind of lean into that gender norm of what it is to be strong and tough and masculine and macho, of what it is to be strong and tough and masculine and macho, and it borders on these kind of dynamics of toxic masculinity and this fragile masculinity. And again, how do people see themselves? They're looking left and looking right, because these ideas aren't necessarily that I define myself. I want to fit in with a peer group. I want to fit in and be just like everybody else self, I want to fit in with a peer group. I want to fit in and be just like everybody else. And so there's this facade that even if I'm hurt and in pain, a lot of times those emotions are avoided, and I think that unfortunately happens a lot more with male identifying clients than female On the other side, I find a lot of my female identifying clients struggle to express the frustration because there's a lot of socialization of what is ladylike or feminine or what is not appropriate, and again, this might seem very binary and very gendered, but I feel like this is about a lot of how we are socialized, specifically as well to the United States, because you go to other countries and what is gender specific and normal in that kind of phrase of you know what is we look left and we look right and we feel like this is what everybody's doing.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

It's different when you're in France or if you're in Japan versus you are in America and even people who are immigrants that come to this country. I've worked with a lot of those clients and I find that they struggle to really like this is, you know, maybe Latino machismo verse like I want to be sad because this person I invested so much of my heart into is just disappeared from my life, and so I find that there's human reactions, but a lot of socialization does play a part in how it manifests. Just like you know, we all have anger and I work a lot with people who have anger, and so anger is one of those things. That's pretty normal, pretty typical, but how it's gender defined. What is appropriate, you know it's I will externalize my anger, because I've got to be tough and strong, versus I'll internalize my anger and be self-critical and judgmental, and how a lot of that is.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Again, we don't sit in a God bless. Today we get social emotional learning, but you know, a generation ago these were things that were whispered. They didn't talk about feelings, they didn't talk about how to process these larger emotional reactions. So we learned math and science in school, but we had to DIY a lot of how to deal with our feelings and we learned it from our parents, our siblings, our grandparents, our lovers, our friends, and they were imperfect teachers as well. And so I think there is a lot of differences that do manifest. But I think if we peel the onion, you kind of a couple layers deep, you're going to find it's the same for all kinds of people.

Gretta:

Wow, that's so interesting and insightful. I asked my Coping with Ghosting Facebook group to ask questions about this topic and one person wrote in and said I'd be very curious to see how common ghosting is based on sexual identity. Like a comparison between LGBTQ communities and straight communities. Does someone's sexuality make them less or more likely to ghost?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Well, you know, I think that a lot of times, our partner is a proxy for our past, and so the experiences we're having with the person who ghosted us is really speaking to a lot of our previous experiences and our journey most of us is really speaking to a lot of our previous experiences and our journey, and for people who are in LGBTQ plus communities, I find that there is this sense of hiding yourself, of feeling invisible, that they've lived with throughout, whether it's being in the closet, whether it's feeling like they are not able to express their true identity and their appearance and their choices in life, and so a lot of these grievous experiences then get magnified when someone is ghosting, because it's like I'm not feeling heard, I'm not feeling seen, I don't have a voice.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And now here I am, this person has cut me off and I'm not able to be heard or seen. I don't have a voice, and so I feel that there's an amplification of that past pain and trauma that really is fueling the intensity of the response to the person who's being, you know, was ghosted in the present.

Gretta:

Yeah, wow, that's really hard. I have a really good friend who is a gay man and he told me that he gets ghosted a lot and I think that you know. I did look up stats to try and see if there had been any research done in this area and it hadn't. But just from my experiences as a coach, where people who have been ghosted I've seen that it happens across the board. Just like you were saying, like in all relationships there are crummy, you know people, people who have crummy communication skills. So I'm not exactly sure if I could answer it Like if someone's sexuality makes them more or less likely to ghost, but it is. It is really painful and we're all going to have a different reaction to it and, like you were saying, just a reaction based on the feeling of already being invisible and marginalized. It's deeply painful.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And to lean into that idea there. Gretta, physiologically in the brain, the area that is pain is associated with rejection. So really the same parts of your brain that get activated when you hurt your shoulder, you hurt your back are activated when you get rejected. And so there is like when you say, like the heartbreak, the physical pain, like people go through ghosting and they're like feeling it, like physiologically feeling it, there's a real biological connection. They've done MRI studies to speak to this and so like it's something that people are like, oh, it's just heartache, you know, get over it and people try to minimize it, but like your physiology is fighting. That, because you know we are all built for this fight, flight or freeze kind of experience. When there's a threat and that feeling of rejection is a huge threat to our sense of self, our sense of security and stability, to that point of the future, to that point of the future. And when we go through that fight or flight, where is this kind of either I'm going to attack from something, I'm going to withdraw from something.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And you think about how sometimes people respond to ghosting, where they want to attack or they shut down because it is very much feeling threatened and they're trying to protect themselves. Now, there's no physical threat in front of them, but this kind of emotional threat. It's almost like worse, because there's nowhere to put the Band-Aid, there's nowhere to you know, this is what you do. God bless you. Your broken leg is what you do when you have a heartache. When you have this kind of loss, rejection, and you're feeling dysregulated physiologically, it's not just like, okay, well, you snap your fingers or you take an aspirin. It is like unpacking and processing, and that's where the grief response really becomes, I think, a useful model.

Gretta:

Yeah, exactly, If somebody is in physical pain because they've been ghosted and they want to start unpacking this, is there an emergency toolkit that you would recommend just off the top of your head, like a few initial steps to kind of move past the, the oh, there's the heartache.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Well, I'm a big fan of journaling. I find journaling, writing self-expression, is a powerful tool. I always use the metaphor of a sponge. You absorb this pain, this frustration, this hurt, this loss, this feeling humiliated, whatever that emotion is, and, like when a sponge is full, it's saturated just pushes everything around. We can't absorb good or bad, so we need to release, so then we can absorb other things. And so writing is sometimes a tool that we can. It doesn't I'm not your penmanship or spelling, your grammar, that all none of that matters, it's just a cathartic release to let it out. And I've had clients write three lines big, vulgar things they want Great Because it's. Again, I would rather somebody channel it into the written word or the typed word than they have to like carry it around. And then somebody, I don't know, like bumps into them with their coffee and then they're like snapping and going off the deep end or something small disappointment at work. And somebody is in tears Because again there's this transference of these feelings that from the past is fueling our responses in the present. So journaling can be a great tool.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

I also think you know there's a space for self-compassion, that people take a risk. That's what dating is right. We're taking a risk, we're going to make ourself vulnerable, we're exploring this potential for a wonderful relationship and even if the risk doesn't work out, we still can feel compassionate that I did something hard. I pushed my comfort zone, I took a risk, I made myself vulnerable and I can feel a sense of pride and accomplishment from that, because these are generally hard experiences. That's what makes you know if we didn't care, we wouldn't feel any of these things. It's kind of, you know, absurd to think that we're going to get emotional about things we don't care about. And to care is a risk and not letting that turn you into someone who's cold and indifferent but like to feel empowered by, like you know what. I'm a caring person and I'm not going to let whatever that's going on in the world around me shape that feeling, take that away from me, and so I think that there's some self-compassion there and that leads to self-care.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

What can I do to kind of reward myself for pushing my comfort zone? I'm not saying a trip to the Bahamas may be great, but you know I live in reality. I can get a massage, I can go, you know. A pedicure, a manicure, I can go, you know, hang out with some friends. I can just even connect and buy some you know something, some music that I like to listen to. I can go out dancing. There's a lot of ways to allow ourself to lean into the things that make us feel good. People can add to that, but nobody takes away what we do to make ourself feel good, and I think that's what's also important here is that somebody can take away a relationship, but they can't take away your confidence unless you let them. They can't take away your self-compassion unless you let them, and so what we do control are our efforts, not always the outcomes.

Gretta:

I couldn't agree with you more. I think those are great action steps to take after you've been ghosted. I really appreciate that, and I do have a whole podcast episode about journaling after being ghosted, featuring Dr. Kelly Kirksey. So, listeners, if you haven't already, go check that one out. Hi, it's Gretta. Did you know that I offer private coaching? I'm here if you've been ghosted in love, maybe by a family member, a friend or even someone you work with. My coaching sessions are solutions focused. Together, we'll explore your goals and work through the thoughts holding you back from moving forward. I provide gentle, personalized guidance to help you rediscover your confidence and live a life you love.

Gretta:

One of my clients shared this testimonial with me. He said the exercises Gretta gave me were impactful, and I think the biggest impact was made just by talking to her. I would never confide these things to my friends. It's just not something I want to talk to them about. So it was great to talk to her, someone who has been through the ghosting, I seriously appreciate it. If you're ready to start, visit copingwithghosting. com or click the link in the show notes to book a session with me. I can't wait to work with you. Now back to the episode: I also wanted to touch on attachment style. I already have a whole episode on attachment style, ghosting and healing relationship trauma featuring Rose Vigiano, and a lot of other episodes touch on this hot topic as well, and I just would like to hear your thoughts about how attachment style influences ghosting and how does that interconnect with gender, sexuality and culture.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Well, again, I think a lot of the attachment style is a universal human experience, so it's not necessarily going to be correlated with, if the specific gender or specific culture, because I think these are again just human experiences, and so I want to just kind of put that big, broad brushstroke out there. You know, I find a lot of times, you know, what happens is that our attachment styles that's something we're consciously aware of. We're not like, oh well, I'm attached, or insecurely attached or I'm, you know, avoidant. It's something that manifests when we are filling these voids in our lives. And so it's important, I think, for people to take some accountability of, like, what am I bringing to this experience and what is my, how does my attachment style influence how I'm responding? Because I think people can be, let's say, avoidant, and avoidant I liken to like being an island and you're kind of isolating yourself. You know there's not. The problem is when people come needy and they start to encroach our island, it makes us uncomfortable. We want to make more room for ourselves, we want to push people away, which can feel like a mixed message. You're bringing in people, but there's almost a shame for being needy, for needing your own space, because a lot of avoidant people who are islands, do things themselves, and so yet we want to be in a relationship, but we want to do it ourself. Well, you can't DIY a relationship. You have to make space for this other person, and so there's often this feeling, historically, of I was neglected and I want to protect myself from being neglected, so I'll just be an island, I will just take away that power from other people to hurt me and I will withdraw. And so you think about ghosting in these terms of well, why is this person not responding? Avoidant? And so they're used to withdrawing, because it's what they do to regulate themselves, they almost soothe themselves, and that might be like hi, my name's Aaron. I'm going to avoid an attachment style. It's probably not going to come out in that very direct way, but you notice these things when there's conflict, when things get elevated, when things get tense or there's a lot of pressure God bless, we all deal with stress, and so people can feel trapped and engulfed, and so they might shut down, they stonewall, they withdraw, and that's a little bit of like okay, hey, I can be aware of what's going on with me or what's going on with my partner.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

There's also people who are kind of disorganized and there's what we would, I think of like a wave, and so you think of like a wave is pushing and pulling, and these are a lot of people who like to go away, come closer. There's a lot of mixed messages. They threaten the relationship, even though they don't want to leave the relationship. There's this kind of disorganized because there's mixed messages, are really it's like well, it's really confusing to the other person, like you care about me but you're not responding to me, you know. And then you do respond to me and you flood me like 20 texts in like an hour, and like those kinds of reactions are also speaking to somebody who has maybe history of trauma, who doesn't feel safe, and so they need to have some kind of control and they're pushing back and forth like a wave.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And of course, then there's like the securely attached people and everyone's like oh, it's great to be securely attached, because you know, I think of securely attached like an anchor and it's like stable and strong. But the problem with an anchor or a securely attached person is they're easily influenced by the waves or the islands. Everything around them can shape how they respond. So they're a bit of a chameleon. So, as much as they're secure, that influence doesn't mean that they can be a little passive. They don't always assert themselves. They're so accommodating. They always don't like take the space to say this is what I need.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And so when you think about these different attachment styles related to a breakup, it's like, well, somebody is like influencing me, so you push me away, I'll push you away. Okay, well, that's not going to lead us to any kind of closure or conversation. You're somebody who's disorganized. It's like, well, the mixed messages, I'm confused, I'm not sure what they really need, and so that leaves us kind of flustered. And then, like you know, we don't talk, and then we'll talk like a month later, and then we don't talk and then we'll talk like six months later. It's like that hot and cold experience is really frustrating and it sends a lot of dysregulation to the person receiving those messages.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And, of course, then the avoidance style is the most obvious, I think, when it comes to ghosting. It's like, well, they just disappear, they just are avoiding me. But a lot of times they're having the shame for having needs, they're struggling with their own pain, and that's really what's causing them to avoid and I could have just said hey great, I just don't take it personal. But like that doesn't help, that doesn't work right, because it's not as simple as just not taking it personal. All of these kind of reactions are grounded in our developmental experiences. We come to our relationship based on a lifetime of stuff, and that's why I think I said earlier that our partner is kind of a proxy for our past and so a lot of ghosting behaviors either. What's wrong with me and I feel shame. Why do they do this to me?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

And a simple strategy that is kind of challenging to put into practice is what does it say about them? What does it say about the other person and the more we can lean into that, what does it say about the job that didn't respond to me? What does it say about the partner that didn't respond? What does it say about the job that didn't respond to me? What does it say about the partner that didn't respond? What does it say about the family? There's lots of ways that this can manifest in my work as a therapist, and so it helps to. Really we of course the main character in our own lives, but I think there's a way where we get stuck in a single story that, like my story, is the right story and like there's lots of stories that we can use to understand why people treat us the way they do.

Gretta:

I really like that you brought up. Well, what does it say about them? And I'm wondering what story let's just say, hypothetically, you were ghosted today by somebody you really cared about. What would your answer be to the question what does it say about them?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Well, I think, again, there isn't one answer. I think it's going to fit all people, but I think there's something about like, maybe they're scared, maybe they're disappointed with themselves, maybe they feel their own sense of shame. What is, again, I'm going to lean into emotionally, because this isn't a logical problem. Just to be clear, like, logically it's like why wouldn't we just talk to each other? But because logic is so simple and straightforward, this isn't the land of logic. Relationships aren't logic. Relationships are all about emotion, and so I lean into like, well, are they feeling guilty about something? Are they feeling disappointed about something? Are they ashamed of something? Are they worried about something? Are they sad about something?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

I'm going to go through a whole litany of emotions that can create different stories, and the more we can do this, the more we understand that I'm only one of those stories. They're doing this to me, but I lean into that idea of what does it say about them? And there's this kind of neuroplasticity in our brain. The more we're able to think about other stories, the more we're able to think about it's not just about me. And that translates into a lot of other factors of life, because so much of life we take personally, when it isn't unfair to me, life is just unfair. It's not that there is just injustice to me, there's injustice to the world. People aren't just insensitive to me, people are just insensitive. And we can keep going through this, where it's not always about what I did or didn't do.

Gretta:

Right, and I really like how you stated that, because it just gives you more of, like, a broader perspective on this very serious issue. And when you challenge the narrative and you kind of question well, okay, so this is a person that is unable or unwilling to talk to me and I don't know why, but I can surmise that it is maybe because one of these many reasons. Well, I don't know which reason it is, so I'm not going to make it this a story about me lacking so. I'm not going to make it this a story about me lacking something. It's not going to be a story about my fears or insecurities with myself, but it's going to be more of a story of well for me.

Gretta:

Now I have empathy for people who ghost because they're unable to show up to a mature and healthy relationship, and that's kind of just the bottom line. And people who are unable to show up to a mature, healthy relationship and they coldly and suddenly vanish without a word, well, that really reveals a lot about their character and it and, in a way, like that's just that sucks for them. That sucks for them, well, not only because they lost me, but because they are. They're just that's life on a struggle bus.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

Yes, and that's, I think, this idea of like. We all have deficits. There's never been a perfect human. There never will be a perfect human, and I can tolerate the deficit. I don't like traffic, I don't like standing in line. I tolerate things I don't like because I want to get somewhere. I want to be in a relationship, so I have to tolerate other people's deficits in order to get the relationship I want to have. People are going to have to tolerate my deficits because this is going to go long term, and so it's less about blame and judgment and pointing fingers, because all that does is like dig a hole to get out of a hole. We just end up deeper in the pain.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

It reinforces the neural pathways in our brain. We all remember more emotional things and pleasant things, and so it's kind of pumping the brakes on the emotional side of what's wrong with me and why they did this to me, versus like how do I make sense of another person, how do I understand the world around me? And that helps me to have very different perspective and again allows my brain to think about myself as healthy, as stable, as this isn't going to define me, this isn't going to change me. It's like you know, get a bad windshield wiper, you don't get a new car, you get a new windshield wiper. We work on the parts of ourselves, those deficits right I. We work on the parts of ourselves, those deficits right. I think what happens a lot of times is you become the all. The whole car needs to be replaced. It's rather than just look at the parts of ourselves, the parts of that other person, and so it becomes a different way of processing these abandonments and rejections and losses.

Gretta:

Right, right, wow. Are there any final?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

words or thoughts that you want to leave with the listeners. No-transcript. People are dating because they want to have some long-term support, a relationship, and I think that's very much grounded in what we need to be healthy people is we need to be attached to other people as much as people can do things themselves and be loners. I think we are all instinctually connected to another person, and so I would encourage people, despite being hurt, despite the pain, just like an old wound that sometimes, you know, I hurt myself, people hurt themselves when they're younger, and then they do something today and like, oh, my shoulder hurt, but it's like not the thing today, it's the old wound, and so it's being able to separate our old wounds from the activities and the people, the relationships in our life today, because, again, this is all part of the journey and so, like a lot of things, if you're able to put it in the right perspective, then you feel like you can manage it a lot easier.

Gretta:

Smaller bites I love that. Thank you, yeah, absolutely. How can listeners connect with you?

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

You can find me online. I'm at wwwcarmencounselingcom and I have two books available on Amazon. I have the Anger Management Workbook for Men and Instant Anger Management, both available through Amazon, and my name is again Aaron Carmen, and I encourage listeners, if they have questions, to shoot me an email or to check out my books to learn more about my approach.

Gretta:

I love it and I've read the books and thank you so much for them because they're really good. Highly recommend them and thank you so much for joining me today and being here.

Aaron Karmin, LCPC:

It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Gretta:

And listeners. Please follow Coping with Ghosting on social media. Join my free and private Coping with Ghosting Facebook support group and leave a review for this podcast, because your feedback will help people who have been ghosted discover ways to heal and finally remember. When you're ghosted, you have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills. You deserve the best. You're just a ghost to me.