Healing from Narcissism: Strategies to Overcome Ghosting and Toxic Relationships

If you’ve been gaslit, manipulated, betrayed, ghosted, or are feeling emotionally distressed in a relationship, this episode is for you. Therapist Shannon Petrovich, LCSW, LISAC, BCD—who brings over 30 years of clinical experience—joins host Gretta to explore narcissistic and other toxic relationship dynamics. Together, they offer tools to help you set boundaries, release emotional pain, reclaim your strength, and start your healing journey.

In this episode, you’ll learn how to:

• Tell the difference between overt and covert narcissists
• Spot trauma bonds and manipulation tactics
• Understand why someone would ghost you without blocking you
• Outsmart a narcissist without losing your peace
• Reframe emotional triggers as healing guides

Shannon also shares grounded insights on emotional detachment, self-care, and practical ways to protect yourself from toxic patterns so that you can move forward with clarity and confidence.

Shannon Petrovich, LCSW, LISAC, BCD, is a therapist with 30+ years of experience. Through her work, Shannon helps women heal from narcissistic and other toxic relationships.

Connect With Gretta

Free & Private Facebook Support Group | Instagram | YouTube | copingwithghosting.com

Host Gretta Perlmutter, MA, a Certified Post Betrayal Transformation® Coach, delivers evidence-based strategies for turning personal betrayal into a powerful catalyst for growth and healing.

Connect with Shannon

Out of the FOG, into the CLEAR; Journaling to Help You Heal from Toxic Relationships | YouTube

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Ramos

Disclaimer: This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools. Coping With Ghosting does not provide health care or psychological therapy services and does not diagnose or treat any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or registered professionals.

✨Shop the CWG Amazon Store✨ If it's on the list, it is because my Coping With Ghosting Podcast guests wrote it or recommended it, and/or I've read it or experienced it and found it valuable for me and my clients.❤️‍🩹

Transcript

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Ghosted Song 0:04

You . I can't believe you're just a memory . Believe You're just a memory . Why did you have to leave ?

Gretta Perlmutter 0:35

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting , the podcast that provides hope , healing and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted or betrayed . I'm your host , Gretta , and today I'm unpacking narcissism from how to detect it to how to protect yourself from it , and joining me is returning guest Shannon Petrovich . Shannon earned her clinical licenses in social work and substance abuse counseling and is a board certified diplomat in clinical social work .

Gretta Perlmutter 1:03

Her outstanding , amazing book Out of the Fog Into the Clear Journaling to Help you Heal from Toxic Relationships has attained Amazon bestseller status in self-help for abuse , codependency and personal transformation , and I can tell you that this book is incredible . It's really life-changing . I sent this to one of my friends and she immediately got out of her toxic relationship , and that , to me , is yeah , it's just priceless , okay . So on her YouTube channel , therapist Talks , shannon shares insights , information , perspectives and strategies on various relationships and mental health topics . With a trauma-informed , strength-based approach , she seeks to help people see the old stories that are in the way and to fully become the person they were created

What percent of the population is a narcissist?

Gretta Perlmutter 2:00

to be . Welcome back , thank you for being here .

Shannon Petrovich 2:04

Thanks so much , Gretta . I'm super excited to chat with you again .

Gretta Perlmutter 2:08

Me too , and the questions that I have for you today come directly from listeners and from members of my free and private Coping with Ghosting Facebook support group . So let's dive into the first one . What percent of the population is a narcissist ?

Shannon Petrovich 2:30

So this question is so funny to me because so many people professionals will say oh , it's 4% , oh it's this percent or that percent and truly nobody knows . The only reason we know what percent of the population is depressed is because they seek help . What percentage of the population is anxious ? They seek help ? Narcissists don't seek help . They destroy lives , they burn bridges , they do terrible things and the only time they ever show up in a therapist's office is when a partner drags them in there , and usually they will stay for a couple of sessions and then they'll bounce . If you're

Identifying Narcissistic Traits and Behaviors

Shannon Petrovich 3:10

not being manipulated , if you're not manipulatable . So it's a really hard thing to say . And also , we look at narcissism on a spectrum from mild to moderate to severe . You know , in the severe range , that's somebody who beats people up , who completely implodes or explodes when they don't get their way . In the more mild cases of narcissistic traits , a lot of people have those sort of narcissistic traits , but it's not full blown delusional narcissism . So I think it's impossible to say what the population is .

Gretta Perlmutter 3:50

Right , and I hear this word thrown around so much that it really feels like it's a ton of people these days , but I'd like to provide a gentle reminder for listeners that none of us can diagnose the people who betrayed or ghosted us . That's something only qualified doctors or therapists can do .

Shannon Petrovich 4:10

Right and it's so important to . I think sharing about narcissism is really critically important . Obviously , my channel has now focused on that thrive beyond narcissism and the and my coaching does . And it's really critical to understand it , because if you're not wired that way and the person that you're involved with is , it's so baffling , like you know , people are always saying Well , why would they lie about that ? Well , they literally lie about everything and the . You know , why would they treat me that way ? I don't understand . Or why wouldn't they just let me go ? I don't understand . You know these traits are so hard to unpack , so it's really important to understand that . But don't get lost in that .

Shannon Petrovich 4:58

In my book , you know , a third of it is on healing and rebuilding your life because it's been so destructively altered . You know the first third is understanding it . The middle third is healing and then rebuilding , because you literally have become so focused on them that all your time , energy , emotion , thought is completely absorbed in what they're doing , what they're thinking , what they're feeling , and so in healing , we absolutely have to pull back from that and look at our own thoughts , feelings , wants and needs and start to really focus on self-care and everybody talks about self-care , but there are specific ways to do self-care that I outlined in my book and also my coaching series . So it's really important

Overt vs Covert: Different Types of Narcissists

Shannon Petrovich 5:50

to recognize what it is and understand it , but then pull back and don't just get buried in whether they are or aren't , or to what degree , or any of that stuff .

Gretta Perlmutter 6:01

It is important to get out from under their influence and focus on yourself .

Shannon Petrovich 6:06

Exactly .

Gretta Perlmutter 6:07

Yeah , so several listeners have asked about the differences between a narcissist and a covert narcissist , so can you please break these down and explain how someone might recognize whether they're dealing with one or the other Sure ?

Shannon Petrovich 6:28

So this has become sort of a more of a designation . That really is also helpful because and I did a video on it that where I use the analogy of covert ops and like SEAL Team 6 . So the SEAL team in a covert op , they go in undercover . It's dark , it's silent , it's just as deadly though . So sometimes people will say , oh , they're just a covert , they're not a big deal . That's not true . That bully that comes in guns blazing you see them coming , you see their wreckage .

Shannon Petrovich 7:08

The covert is so hidden and manipulative and sinister that oftentimes the victim looks crazy . The victim looks like the . They can even flip it and say that the victim is a narcissist . They'll talk about how the victim is so non empathic . They will , you know , wreak cyber destruction on them . You know , with all their social media contacts and all , it's not so obvious . So some of the kinds of things that they will do are just so twisted and gaslighting , and that term means that they are trying to make you feel crazy , trying to flip the script all the time . And they'll always use projection .

Shannon Petrovich 8:07

So I did a video called projection , how narcissists tell on themselves . And you know , I had one client whose partner would say you just want to kill me , don't you ? And it was really that person that was homicidally narcissistic . So you know she would say , well , no , of course not , but he was telling on himself . It was really important that she listened to that and pay attention to that , because his aggression was increasing . But that projection is taking your , what you're doing and what you're thinking , and projecting it on the other person . So a covert will tell you what they're thinking in their projection . So you really have to pay attention to that . And it's appropriately scary when you do pay attention to that and you need to step back and go wow , that's what they're thinking . Wow , that's what they're thinking . Wow , that's not good .

Gretta Perlmutter 9:06

Yeah , it is quite disturbing and it makes my heart hurt .

Shannon Petrovich 9:11

Yeah .

Gretta Perlmutter 9:12

Yeah , narcissists . They're known for this whole twisting of the narrative , and they often make other people out to be the villain right . So , from your perspective , what are some of the most common ways , in addition to what you've already described , that they manipulate people and then , when they start turning others against you , what's the best way to respond ?

Shannon Petrovich 9:39

Yeah , it's such an important question , Gretta , because the list of ways they manipulate is endless . I like to use the analogy of the hooks and lures on a Bass Pro Shop wall of fishing tackle , because there are just so many and it's almost like they have that in their head and they pick this one . If it works to hook you in , they use that , and then , if it doesn't , then they'll pick this one . It's really important to understand that , because one of the crazy making things is that they will cycle through . If you step back and watch a narcissist unravel or implode or explode , you'll see first they're using anger and they'll kind of do microaggressions , then they'll use guilt , then they'll jump to tearfulness , then they'll bounce back to anger . A little bit of microaggression there , then they'll jump into Well , you don't care about me as much as I care about you , obviously , or you wouldn't have gone out with your girlfriends . Well , you don't care about me as much as I care about you , obviously , or you wouldn't have gone out with your girlfriends , you know . So it's . It's literally so all over the map that you can't track it , and that's what gets people hooked , because it makes you feel crazy and you're trying so hard as an empathic person , we want to solve problems and we typically come to the table being people pleasers and problem solvers and peacekeepers . So we really want to solve this problem . We really want to have this conversation and get to the bottom of it .

Shannon Petrovich 11:15

In one of my narcissistic relationships , literally he would badger and belittle and jump

Manipulation Tactics and Their Warning Signs

Shannon Petrovich 11:24

around to these different manipulations until I cried and then it was over , everything's good . It was so crazy and I started to recognize that and then I tested it , like I just stayed stubborn , stubborn , stubborn and wouldn't , and tried , tried , tried to navigate and negotiate and all the things , and it wasn't until I cried that he let it go . And so you have to recognize there are thousands of manipulative tactics that a person like this will use to control and to make you feel what they want you to feel and to make you focus on them entirely . Because his whole issue was he didn't get enough of my attention . He wanted me to just be his little , I don't know lap dog and anytime I would go do something else , he would get bent out of shape and then , just in this hour long or week long or two week long torture until I cried and then it was over .

Gretta Perlmutter 12:30

I'm so sorry that happened to you . That's so awful .

Trauma Bonding and Why People Stay

Shannon Petrovich 12:36

Yeah , and we learn . You know luckily or not luckily , but you know , by the grace of God I guess I was able to get out of it and see it for what it was . But it can be so tricky and the trauma bonding is what happens when we get treated this way . So some people don't totally understand trauma bonding . But one of the really important pieces is that they cycle in and out of all these tactics . So there are these little microaggressions when they're not getting the attention they want , and those little microaggressions either work or don't work . If it doesn't work , then they'll increase it , or increase it . Then , as soon as it works , they go back to love bombing , and so this back and forth trains you basically to do what they want and don't do what they don't want .

Shannon Petrovich 13:37

And over time you get so sucked into that that you've lost yourself . You've lost what your thoughts , feelings , wants and needs are , and you become bankrupt emotionally , physically , sometimes financially , and you lose yourself . And then , whatever they say , do you want or need ? You're all about it . And that's when people you know a lot of people will say well , why does she stay , or why does he stay , or that person's so crazy , but they must like it . And I just get so cringed out over that kind of thing , because it isn't that anybody likes to be treated that way . It's just that it's sucked you in so thoroughly that you cannot see anything . It's you're in the fog , the fear , obligation and guilt of that toxic relationship .

Gretta Perlmutter 14:33

I feel so much for people who are in this type of relationship and that's why I always recommend this book to anybody . Yeah , and if this resonates with you , if you know listeners , if you have a friend who is going through this , or

Ghosted but Not Blocked

Gretta Perlmutter 14:50

a parent or anyone you know , literally just send them this book , because it will really help . Just be like this , this is a game changer . So thank you , Gretta .

Shannon Petrovich 15:00

Yeah .

Gretta Perlmutter 15:01

Going back to my listener question , somebody says the person who lied to me and ghosted me didn't block all lines of communication immediately . After six months he unfriended me on Facebook . Then a month later he blocked me on WhatsApp . I never even reached out to him . There was no argument , no last conversation . Why would a narcissist ghost but still leave some lines of communication open ?

Shannon Petrovich 15:30

So somebody who uses and abuses people , people they want to keep that connection in case they want to circle back and use you and abuse you again . So they're going to leave that open . I've heard of a lot of situations where a person gets out of the relationship and then a few months later they're feeling great , they've found themselves again , they've healed , and that person reaches out and it can just be a happy birthday was thinking about you . Don't go there , just don't do it . It's so tempting and they'll say all the right things and do all the right things and then you're sucked in again . So it's important that , listeners , if you have a relationship like that , you do the blocking , like why would you leave that avenue open for them ? You block If they are toxic , they're never not going to be that person . So don't leave yourself open to when they are done with that little shiny thing and they're coming back to you . That's there . They're just keeping you in their back pocket for further use and abuse . Don't be there .

Gretta Perlmutter 16:44

Right , and I think that when people don't block , they're also waiting to see how you respond . They want to get messages from you . Maybe it gives them a sense of no , it definitely gives them a sense of power and control to see you , maybe potentially even begging to get back with them .

Shannon Petrovich 17:03

Yeah , and they may be stalking you too . They may be watching what you're doing , seeing if you're , and that as soon as you're doing well again , they're coming back in for the kill . So they don't go after . This is another myth . I think they don't go after people who are weak and vulnerable . They typically go after somebody who's a challenge . So strong people are a good challenge and a fun challenge and they love to tear them down . And so when you allow yourself to be that and to be available and to be stocked and to be reconnected with , you're just putting yourself in the line of fire again . I mean it's tempting , because no one wants to cut anybody off if you're an empathic person , but again , you just have to stop .

Gretta Perlmutter 17:57

Yeah , and blocking is an act of courage . I know that it can be really hard for some people to do this , so take your time with it , right , because it's sometimes it's not that easy to go and press the block button . Maybe ask one of your close friends or relatives to do it for you if you don't have the courage to do it or if you

Triggers and how they can help you

Gretta Perlmutter 18:17

don't even feel like you want to look at their face as you block . Right , I know it can be triggering and stressful to do that , but it's really an act of self-care .

Shannon Petrovich 18:28

Yeah , and triggers are real . Oftentimes triggers are really good information . It shows us where we're stuck . It shows us where we haven't healed and if we can get triggered all the way into that fight , flight or freeze mode , it means we haven't fully healed . And that's why I developed the book and the coaching program and all the videos is because I just feel like there's so much knowledge to be had that people don't have and millions of people from all over the world are needing this knowledge . So you know , a few number of years ago I decided to share all this stuff and it's and now become a coaching program and a masterclass and that sort of thing for people who want one on one or group .

Shannon Petrovich 19:19

And it's just critical that we recognize if I can get triggered into that fight , flight or freeze mode , then my whole system is still on fire from that person . Fire from that person . That's not healthy . When we go into that mode it's literally like poison coursing through our bloodstream , through our brain , through every part of us . So if you're constantly in that fight or flight , if you're easily triggered into that fight or flight , then you've got to do the work to calm that system down .

Shannon Petrovich 19:54

You can't . Even your rational mind goes offline . So you're in this fight flight freeze , your rational mind's offline and you're trying to run your life . It's not possible . So it's super important to recognize that triggers are indications that we're not healed . Also , every time we get triggered , it sends us back into that fight flight freeze with all that stress hormone flowing through our bodies . So if you can stop that triggering , it's really critical to do that , and that means blocking .

How to Outsmart a Narcissist

Shannon Petrovich 20:31

That means if they're in your friendship group , you have to make a decision about that . If they go to a meeting or something that you go to , you have to think about that , like , what is it worth to you to separate yourself fully from that person ?

Gretta Perlmutter 20:46

Those are great points In your experience . What are some of the most effective ways to outsmart a narcissist and protect yourself from their manipulation ?

Shannon Petrovich 20:59

So critical . So the first step is to step back emotionally and watch the circus is what I call it . So when we can emotionally step back and not take it all personally because that person did not come about that way because of you . So you know , even though we want to think it's all about us , it's not . They are who they are and you are not that person and you didn't cause it and you can't cure it . So we love to , you know , take on projects , but we need to stop doing that too . But if we can emotionally step back and watch that circus and go oh there , they are doing that thing again . Oh look , they did that little microaggression to see if I would back off and not say that I wanted to do something else today . Oh look , they pouted like that's going to make me feel bad and do what they want , you know .

Shannon Petrovich 22:00

So we always in a relationship , we always want to take our space , we always want to know and own our thoughts , feelings , wants and needs and show up fully . You know , a lot of times we'll show up , especially in an early in a relationship , being the placater , being the peacekeeper and people pleaser and doing everything just totally focused on their thoughts , feelings , wants and needs , not showing up for ourselves . And what happens is we're setting that in motion inadvertently , so we always want to step back . What do I think ? I don't want to go out tonight . I don't want to go . I don't want to hang tonight . I need to see my girlfriends . I need to do something for me , or I need to just veg in front of a really bad TV show . You know , like taking care of you and recognizing what you need and then communicating that in a healthy way . And then , if that person has a tantrum whether it's an implosion of like oh , you just don't care about me as much as I care about you , or no , you always want to see your friends or your family . You know those microaggressions or macroaggressions or ghosting you for that , like okay , if you see that kind of thing when you're just showing up as a whole person , you need to see that as what it is , so stepping back emotionally , watching the circus , not owning it , and then asking yourself , what do I really want in this and is that person going to let me fully show up in this relationship ? And if the answer is no , then the answer is no , like you can't .

Shannon Petrovich 23:48

So the first step is to really be able to watch people . When you've healed and become sort of healthier in yourself , then you will see this stuff a lot more clearly and you'll meet people . It's kind of an occupational hazard in some ways , but seeing people for what they really are and who they really are , you can kind of step back and go , wow , okay , you know you'd see it right away and it's almost comical and that's really healthy . When you stop taking other people's stuff on as your own . And a big part of the healing is looking at the toxic relationship within your own head .

Shannon Petrovich 24:30

When we talk to ourselves negatively all day , every day , we are set up for connecting with other people who will be negative towards us , and it isn't that we're comfortable with that . I hate that when people say that , but it is that . It's a template in our lives that we created in childhood based on whatever was going on then , and we brought it forward so that we don't feel like we fully need to exist in a relationship that we do show up as the placater and peacekeeper . So it's really important to fix the toxic relationship in your head , learn to be your own best friend , learn to step back from other people's circus and watch

JADE: Justify, Argue, Defend, and Explain

Shannon Petrovich 25:15

it , and then we can show up with good boundaries and we also are not hooked , so that if I'm not fully hooked into that relationship , then if they get mad at me and they have a little micro tantrum or macro tantrum , I'm like all right , bye , it's not going to upset me .

Gretta Perlmutter 25:35

There's this acronym that this is kind of reminding me of . It's called Jade , it's from Al-Anon , it is don't justify your actions , don't argue , don't defend yourself , don't explain yourself , and I think it's a great way to kind of disengage from the narcissist . I mean , you can say how you feel but then just go silent after that , because there's really no use in arguing .

Shannon Petrovich 26:05

Yeah , we do have to learn to just take ownership of what we're thinking , feeling , wanting , of what we're thinking , feeling , wanting and needing and then not engage in justifying , arguing , defending . You know , if somebody can't hear you and can't accept any of that , why stay around and argue about it ? It's just really important to separate from that and know that you're doing what you need to do for you and a healthy relationship is not like that . A healthy relationship is okay . Yeah , let's get together when you feel like it . Yeah , that's totally great . How was your time with your friends that kind of thing , and that's different . Your friends that kind of thing , and that's different .

Shannon Petrovich 26:57

With a narcissistic person , they're going to implode or explode in a small way or in a big way Depends on what works . If a small way works , they're going to do that . If it doesn't work till it gets big , they're going to do that . And that's so critical to see . It's not about you . They will do that with anybody . And you know that's the critical piece taking care of you , stepping back , holding boundaries . You know , if you're already in a toxic relationship and you've got kids and you're invested and you've put a lot of time in the way , to regroup yourself is to do the healing . Do the internal self-talk healing . To do the healing . Do the internal self-talk healing , watch that circus and all those games and then start to stand up for yourself and say no , you know you can have this tantrum , but I'm still going to go spend time with my family and it isn't about you and it's not okay with me that you're having this tantrum and I'm going now . I'll see you later and then let them spin out .

Shannon Petrovich 28:02

Sometimes I've seen this happen in my practice . Sometimes that person will kind of grow up and say , oh wow , I don't want to lose my marriage , and they'll actually change that behavior . Sometimes they'll actually escalate to violence and then you know for sure you can't be married to that person , no matter what you have invested , no matter the ages of the kids . You have to get out . So setting boundaries works to give you the information you need to know whether to stick it out or not . And setting boundaries means that you're just protecting yourself

Winning and Losing Battles with Ghosters

Shannon Petrovich 28:38

and the relationship . This is what I will accept . This is what I won't accept . I will hang up the phone if you're talking to me that way . I will leave the house if you're talking to me that way , period .

Gretta Perlmutter 28:49

Yeah , boundaries are essential . It's just occurred to me that a lot of people who get ghosted by narcissists or by anyone they feel like , oh well , the ghost won , they won , they're . You know , I'm the one who has to do all this work now . They won , but this isn't about winning or losing , this is just getting away from them , right ? Could you share your thoughts on that ?

Shannon Petrovich 29:18

Yeah , I've had a lot of clients say this to me . They're like , oh well , he got off scot free . I'm so sad . And he got off scot free . And I will always say you dodged a bullet Like hallelujah that they cut it off when they did .

Shannon Petrovich 29:34

Because you're free now and you know you need to block them even though they've blocked you . You because they will unblock you when they see that you're doing something they like and want back . So block them , even though they've already blocked you or ghosted you or whatever . Block them and recognize wow . I'm glad I saw this now and not five years from now , because the the level of destruction on yourself is equivalent to the amount of time you spend in the relationship and the more time , the more destruction .

Shannon Petrovich 30:13

So if they've ghosted you and you feel sad , flip that script and recognize this person was going to do that destruction to you until they ghosted you and thank God they did it now and thank God they did it at all . You know I had a client whose husband walked out on her . I've had lots of clients whose partners have walked out on them , cheated on them this and that and the other , and then later they'll say , wow , I'm so grateful they did that . I want to send a gift to that girlfriend that I wanted to kill because she saved me from that person , and I'm so grateful now that I don't have to live with that anymore , because I would have stuck it out .

Gretta Perlmutter 31:06

I'd have been there still , yeah the silver lining . Yeah .

Shannon Petrovich 31:10

Hard to see it when you're in the moment .

Shannon Petrovich 31:12

And it's also hard to be told that when you're in the moment as well , yeah , Well , is there anything else you'd like to share about narcissism or anything else we've talked about today ? You know just the self like storm around and yell at their , at their athletes , and tear them down and just chew them out and all that stuff . If you're that kind of coach , inside your head you're just wreaking destruction . You can switch that to being a really positive coach where you're saying you got this , you can do this , this is really hard , but you've got this . Or this was hard , you blew this , but let's do it differently . Even and not oh , you're so stupid , why do you keep doing this ?

Shannon Petrovich 32:19

We really have to monitor that and when we can switch that into being positive and caring and encouraging , that's so critical and that healing inside helps us to hold good boundaries and to step back emotionally . And I call it marvel and move on like you just marvel at that like wow , like a Like . You know , I've known those coverts who will just say these nasty , send these nasty grams in the text , or or you know even a post on a Facebook page which is so atrocious , and you just just marvel like wow , if they could go right there for the juggler on that person or on me . That's who that person is . That's so messed up , that's so mean , it's mean . And if that person's mean , they're mean

Resources and Closing Thoughts

Shannon Petrovich 33:11

and they're not like you . You need to look for an empathic , caring , loving person to be a partner with .

Gretta Perlmutter 33:16

I love that . Thank you . How can listeners connect with you ?

Shannon Petrovich 33:23

So healfromtoxicrelationshipscom is my coaching program and masterclass and that sort of thing . The book is on Amazon . Out of the fog , into the clear journaling to help you heal from toxic relationships . My YouTube channel has about 200 videos on it and it's uh . Therapist talks , thrive beyond narcissism and yeah , that's most of it .

Gretta Perlmutter 33:51

And thank you so much for being here today and joining me again . This was wonderful and so educational and helpful for everyone who's listening , so thank you .

Shannon Petrovich 34:02

Thank you , Gretta , it's been wonderful .

Gretta Perlmutter 34:04

And listeners . Please follow Coping with Ghosting on social media . Join my free and private Facebook support group . Leave a rating for this podcast , subscribe to it and remember when you're ghosted , you have more time to connect with yourself and people who have stellar communication skills . You deserve the best .