Coping with Ghosting

How to Spot a Narcissist in Relationships, with Dr. Harold Shinitzky, Psy.D.

• Gretta Perlmutter, MA, Certified Post Betrayal Transformation® Coach • Season 1 • Episode 93

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Narcissistic behavior often hides in plain sight, especially in relationships. Recognizing the signs of narcissism before entering a relationship or while you are already in one can be the first step toward protecting your peace of mind.

In this episode, Dr. Harold Shinitzky, Psy.D., breaks down the different types of narcissism, how narcissistic traits show up in relationships, and what real support and healing can look like.

You’ll learn about:
• Gaslighting, love bombing, mirroring, and future faking
• Put-downs, smear campaigns, and projection
• Control, surveillance, and emotional manipulation
• What actually motivates change in narcissists
• Boundary phrases that shut down manipulation
• Resources to help you move forward with clarity and confidence

Dr. Shinitzky is a highly sought after presenter nationally and internationally. He is the developer of A Champion’s Mindset™, and The Winning Zone ©. He also co-authored the book, “A Champions Mindset: 15 Mental Conditioning Steps to Becoming a Champion Athlete” and works with Olympians and professional athletes (PGA, NFL, MLB, ATP, WTA, NBA, NHL) and nationally ranked juniors. Dr. Harold E. Shinitzky, Psy. D. is located in St. Petersburg Florida.

Connect With Dr. Shinitzky: drshinitzky.com

Read Dr. Dr. Shinitzky's Book:  Me, Myself, and I: A Narcissist’s Mindset: A Self-Help Handbook for Victims-Survivors of a Narcissist

Connect with Gretta:

Free Guide: What to Say To A Ghost
Free and Private Facebook Support Group |  Instagram | copingwithghosting.com

Music: "Ghosted" by Gustavo Zaiah

Disclaimer:  This information is designed to mentor and guide you to cope with Ghosting by cultivating a positive mindset and implementing self-care practices. It is for educational purposes only; it solely provides self-help tools for your use. Coping With Ghosting is not providing health care or psychological therapy services and is not diagnosing or treating any physical or mental ailment of the mind or body. The content is not a substitute for therapy or any advice given by a licensed psychologist or other licensed or other registered professionals. 

💫👉🏻Want more? Discover Gretta's Coaching HERE

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Note to All Listeners: Ghosting is defined as: The practice of ending a personal relationship with someone by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication (Oxford Languages). When you leave an abusive situation without saying "goodbye," it's not ghosting, it's "self-protection." When you quietly exit a relationship after a boundary has been violated, it's not ghosting, it's "self-respect."

Dr. Shinitzky:

Why did you have to leave?

Gretta:

This episode discusses narcissism and themes that may feel heavy or painful. So please take care of yourself as you listen and step away if you need to. Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing, and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted, betrayed, or hurt in relationships. I'm your host, Gretta, certified post-betrayal transformation coach. And today my guest and I are going to discuss how to spot a potential narcissist in love, dating, and intimate relationships. My guest is Dr. Harold Shinitzky, a licensed psychologist in the state of Florida who has written many books, including this, this life-changing guide. And it's called Me, Myself, and I, A Narcissist Mindset, a self-help handbook for victim survivors of a narcissist. Dr. Shinitzky is also the developer of a champion's mindset and works with Olympians, professional athletes, and national ranked juniors. Welcome, Dr. Shinitzky.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Thank you very much. It is a delight and honor to be a part of the podcast.

Gretta:

I'm so glad you're joining me today. I read your book and I was just really struck by how accessible and empowering it is. If anyone who's watching or listening to this is healing after being in a relationship with a narcissist, this is a tremendously valuable resource. And so I'm going to link how to get it in the show notes. And also before I start asking you all the questions ever, I want to take a moment to remind our community that the word narcissist is thrown around a lot these days and sometimes too casually. Narcissism is a clinical diagnosis that only a licensed mental health professional can make. So my intention with this episode is not to label, but to educate, to share ways narcissistic traits and behaviors might show up in love and dating and intimate relationships so that you can be aware and better protected. And so with that being said, Dr. Shinitzky, I created a list of 10 red flags or warning signs that indicate that someone may be a narcissist. So let's just start with gaslighting, which is just such a common and confusing experience. And for listeners who might not know what this actually is, and could you share and explain what it is and how it typically shows up in relationships?

Dr. Shinitzky:

I appreciate that. And by the way, for the the listeners and the viewers, um, all my books are written for the general public. And so it's not written as an academic book to prove I have an advanced degree. And every the first half of the book does exactly what we're talking about today on the podcast, which is what are kind of the warning signs? The second half of the book are all clinical recommendations, therapeutic recommendations I would offer up to any of the individuals that I work with to help them be empowered as they move forward in life. Gaslighting. A biggie. Um kind of goes back to if you've ever had the opportunity of reading George Orwell's book, 1984, it really speaks to that whole idea of never accepting responsibility. Uh, they commonly say things are fake or fraudulent or they trivialize, they double down, they can never be held accountable. Um, and so when you talk to them, it feels rather frustrating because you're trying as a mature, responsible, insightful, moral person trying to address something. But all you keep getting is this deflection. Uh huh. They externalize instead of accepting accountability. They would rather create chaos rather than addressing the issue. So when you bring up one of your observations or perceptions of what they may have done, they usually just go right to denial. And if not, then they shift and blame that actual behavior on you or someone else. And this pattern of behavior is kind of crazy making. It causes individuals to begin to question their own perception of reality. And so it affects individuals who are victims or survivors of a narcissist because of this tendency of gaslighting.

Gretta:

Right. Can you provide a concrete example of that?

Dr. Shinitzky:

I had a uh a woman that I was working with not too long ago who came in and was talking about uh opening up some of the mail that came in. And one of the envelopes was of uh a bank that had a bank account that she was unfamiliar with. And so at dinner, when her husband came home and she brought this up, instead of being mature individuals who are a little concerned maybe there's identity theft, or maybe it was just a clerical error, and let's call the bank and resolve it. Her husband exploded at her and started saying that she didn't trust him, and how dare she look into his affairs, and this is just a statement of her and that she's overthinking and overreacting. Turns out he was in fact having an affair on the side, he was having a separate account, he was doing all the things that he was in fact being accused of in this just it wasn't even an accusation, it was just a question. And so rather than just dealing with it like mature adults, he realized that he was caught in the middle of something, and so he created a distraction. And by doing so, you see this pattern over and over again. And so, as it works out, when she looked into it, sure enough, she found out that this was an account that he was creating, and there was this nefarious activity going on in the background.

Gretta:

That's really unfortunate. I feel so bad for this person.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Oh, totally. It's uh how do I say this? Um, ever most everybody on the planet, I should say everybody, um, at a very young age learns the difference between good, bad, right, wrong. It's moral development, it's how we all are. But uh a little bit after that, there are some people who don't look at making their life decisions based on good, bad, right, wrong, but rather two factors. What are the odds I'm gonna get caught? And are the consequences great enough I should even care? And these individuals, that's consequence-driven morality. They're constantly trying to take advantage of situations. And if you're with a narcissist, they will look at you as not a person, but an object to their means, their goals, their ends. And so all relationships are not a value as a relationship, but rather transactional. For them, what can I get from this? There's something the narcissist guest gets from all their relationships, otherwise, they wouldn't be in it. They don't care about the other person. They just care that they're getting something from it.

Gretta:

So if somebody was in a relationship with somebody who was a narcissist, was it even really love, like, or was that all imagined?

Dr. Shinitzky:

Well, it depends on who you're asking. The the object of desire uh narcissists are incredibly seductive. They put on this social facade to win someone over, it's uh commonly referred to as love bombing. And that individual will suddenly get this attention and this these accolades and just shower of affection and activities, and it's just it just feels wonderful because well, most people are good people, they do things for moralistic reasons, so it feels that way. And if that person unfortunately has unresolved needs from their own family of origin, their own trauma, and they haven't addressed those, they can be easily manipulated by this shark in society who's just swimming along and looking for some vulnerability, something to take advantage of for themselves. And so to their recipient, it feels that way at first, but to the narcissist, it is all a calculated opportunity for them to win, to get something from that person. They can come across with empathy, but the empathy is to find vulnerability for their benefit to exploit. And so to one person it feels good, to the other person, it is just manipulation.

Gretta:

Okay, so can they even can a narcissist even feel love?

Dr. Shinitzky:

Or is it do they just don't they don't have a loving oh they they feel self, well, aggrandizing. They that's one of the diagnostic criteria. By the way, for the listeners, you are so right. People banter around the word like that person was a narcissist. Um, it usually means that something didn't work out in a relationship, that they weren't really diagnosed. The there are nine criteria for the diagnosis that are on a checklist, and someone has to achieve at least five of them. And I don't know if you want me to share what those are, um, but your audience may be like, hey, what are those things? Yeah. So as it works out, when you when you look at this, many people banter the term narcissist around in society, but there's really, and when it comes to the diagnosis, there are nine criteria of which five have to be achieved minimum. And so the first one is this grandiosity, a sense of self-importance. And they usually almost claim greater achievements versus the commensurate achievements that they've actually uh been able to attain. They tend to be the they talk about how they're the only one who can solve problems and things of that nature. The second one is a preoccupation with uh power, beauty, love. So they're constantly espousing and focusing upon this. The third one is a belief that they're special, that they can only be understood by individuals who are equally in high status, and they look at everybody else as just lesser humans. Uh the fourth one of the criteria is a need for excessive admiration. So they need absolute loyalty. No one can have a difference of opinion or thought. Because they're looking for admiration, they can be manipulated by other individuals who shower them with adoration to influence that individual for their benefit. So it becomes exploitation of exploitation. The fifth is a sense of entitlement. They feel as though uh they should have unquestioning compliance. Rules don't apply to them, laws are irrelevant. And so that's that cost-driven morality. What are the odds I'm going to get caught? And even if I do, are the consequences great enough? I should care. Uh, the sixth one of the criteria is they have a very exploitative nature. They will take advantage of everyone because relationships are transactional. It's always about winning and losing, and they never admit loss, so it's always about taking from others without any compunction. They lack empathy, true understanding and concern, compassion for others. They don't recognize it in others and they don't have a need to recognize it. They they think anyone who has that is kind of a loser. They're again that lesser human. Uh, the next one is the feelings of envy. Very interesting. They are envious of people with power, love, uh, those factors. But they also believe everyone else is envious of them. And the last of the nine is that they have this tendency of showing arrogance, uh, at having a you know an attitude about themselves that they are in fact better than everyone else. When you see five of these nine, and then you're starting to say this person fits the categories for narcissistic personality disorder. And many individuals can be a problem and not making you feel good, but they're not narcissists. I tend to say all narcissists are jerks, but not all jerks are narcissists.

Gretta:

Got it. Okay. So I want to circle back to the woman whose husband was cheating on her and gaslighting her. What can somebody do when they're realizing that they're being gaslit?

Dr. Shinitzky:

You know, the the curious thing, there's uh one of my patients who actually uh I was working with talked to me about a wonderful website that's out there, uh, the Alpha Woman Club. And it she was actually sharing a number of the quotes that came up how to manage gaslighting. And since then, I've I've really enjoyed using a lot of these quotes too. Uh the first one, when you are in that situation where you're bringing up facts, something that you just observed, you experienced, how you feel, and the individual gaslights denies, blames, externalizes. Uh some of the comments would fall into the category of like, uh, well, that's your version. I trust mine.

Gretta:

Yes, perfect. Shut them down with words.

Dr. Shinitzky:

I I'm not confused, I'm just not agreeing with you. Which is oftentimes with a retort you hear from the abuser. Um twisting my words doesn't make you right. I mean, these are powerful. This conversation feels more like control than connection. And and using these kind of comments are vitally important. Being able to possibly turn to friends for clarity, because a lot of times a narcissist, a controlling individual, the person gaslighting will limit your exposure to friends because your friends may offer up a perspective that confirms and validates yours and challenges them. So it's a method of control that the individual using gaslighting will use. So being able to be honest with them about that. Um also, if you point out, I always like to say, if someone's reaction on a scale of one to ten is over a five on a conversation, it probably has nothing to do with what this topic is. If they're reacting over a five, so uh again, one of those quotes is that you're reacting so strongly because this topic hit you, it has a lot of truth to it. And so being able to begin to focus on your perception of reality is vitally important since the gaslighting individual is not going to confirm yours. And so it's important to be able to work with the individual, which is what we talk about either in therapy or the reason why we write books, is to help empower the individual to kind of recapture their perception of reality and how much value they have in themselves.

Gretta:

Right. So another red flag that I'd like to bring up is future faking. This is another form of manipulation. And it kind of feels like gaslighting a lot. Can you explain what future faking is and how it might show up?

Dr. Shinitzky:

Um, if we're talking about the same thing, what I'm about to say is when someone believes that there's going to be a consequence that's imposed, and they offer up, oh, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I I will change. I'm going to make a difference. First off, never fall in love with someone's potential. Fall in love with reality and the moment, the existence. Your agenda and their agenda may not match up at all. And again, this whole idea of consequence-driven morality for your listeners. There's two types of change that can take place. There's insight-oriented change. I realize I need to change because that would make me a better person. And I address it. But the consequence-driven morality is I don't want the consequence. So I'm going to say anything. I'm going to change. Yes, I'll be a better person. And they're always talking about in the future. The problem is when that threat of the consequence now ends, you see a relapse back to that original behavior. Because they weren't doing it for themselves. They were doing it to prevent the consequence. I'm not sure if that's what you're specifically inquiring about, but I see it a lot with individuals who come into therapy.

Gretta:

Well, that's a really important point, too. And I've experienced future faking in kind of a little bit of a different way, where they make big promises that kind of creates a false hope in the sense that they'll say something like, I definitely want to have kids with you. This is something I'm on board with. And then never do they really want to have kids in real life. Like that's just something they're saying to get with you.

Dr. Shinitzky:

And the guys freak out. And I say, ladies, don't listen to a word a guy says. Listen to their behaviors. If their words and their behaviors match up, they're congruent. And you can listen to their words because it matches their behaviors. But if their words and their behaviors do not match up, do not listen to a word they say. Listen to their behaviors. At which point I lean in and I say, guys, you want to understand ladies? Same thing. We really have got to look at reality for reality's sake. Someone's behavior is what we need to interpret, understand, appreciate. The words just disappear in the ether of the universe. It's actually one's deeds. Saying I love you versus showing acts of love are very different. And it's much more powerful to be able to have acts of love that then match up with the statement of I love you. So that whole idea of it is far more important to display a certain behavior than to just speak about it. So when someone says, um, I love you, that that is a sounds like a it's a noun, it's a place, it's a destination. But really, it should be used as a verb. And it's about the actions, it's about being consistent. It's about how do I every day help my loved one realize that they're cherished and valued. That's what you're looking for, the behaviors. So you always want to listen for behaviors.

Gretta:

Yeah, that's a great tip. I love that. The third red flag that I have is narcissistic mirroring, which I find to be incredibly creepy because, and for example, I've experienced this when someone pretended that they had all the exact same interests as I did.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Yeah, it again, if you're coming about it from a loving place, how wonderful that someone shares interests with you. It's so unique and powerful. And to hear someone just kind of have absolute adoration for everything. Oh, you you love dogs and you want kids, and uh you'd like to live in the country, and you know, it's just one after another. Again, that's part of the love bombing. It's being able to just find out what your needs are and say, Oh, I can fill all of them. Um I was exposed to an individual who the more we talked, the more it felt like a sales pitch. And and so if you start getting this feeling like, I don't know about this, it was always, hey, I can do this for you. What do you need? What are you working on? What do you want? Oh, I could feel that. It's like, really? Like, take care of yourself. You know, I'm doing pretty well. And so the mirroring, there's great research that shows when people do connect, they physically mirror themselves. So if I'm leaning like this and having a conversation and I'm connected with the person, they'll actually engage in the same physical manner as them. But it's that constant everything we agree upon. So you want to, I always tell people when you're gonna enter into a relationship, you have to be careful what your unresolved needs are, because you may dive into a relationship based on your unresolved needs that this other person is now exploiting. So you need more time, more data points, more situations to be able to observe, are they being consistent? And if you find out there's not, they're inconsistent, it was actually just words, then that's when you have to take a step back and be able to assert, these are my needs. If it's not something that's, you know, of your interest, I get it. I don't want you to change. I want you to be you. And they go, oh no, no, seriously, I want those same things. Like with kids, I always say, you you can prompt them, you can offer a clarifying, but you can't keep going back. The person is now just being manipulated. If you see the behavior doesn't match the words, you have to begin to listen for the words. That's actually one of the interventions we talk about to help individuals, and that's a listening filter. Um, narcissists are constantly projecting their insecurities on the world. So they'll say stuff like, you can't trust him. It means you really, you really shouldn't believe everything I say. Um, that person's dumb. Well, that's a reflection I have inferiority. And so what we try to do with individuals who come in who are been victimized or survivor of a narcissist, to begin to look at the world from the statements being made by people are projections of themselves.

Gretta:

Okay, so that's really interesting because my number four was put downs. And one time I was, well, the person, the man that I was dating who inspired this podcast, if you will, the the ghost, he told me about his ex. And he said, Well, she didn't have a brain in her head. And it was so painful for me to just even hear him speak about another woman like that. I mean, it wasn't a sneer campaign, which they do too, but it was it raised red flags for me.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Absolutely. I think that's a magnificent statement. Listen to what someone says about their exes. In addition, by the way, for the red flags like that, is see how this person you're in a relationship with treats people who are service-oriented because they will react poorly. They will be, they'll talk down to them, they'll be judgmental to them. There's a bit of sarcasm to them. So the idea of saying mean, hurtful things, and again, working on empowering the individuals that I see in therapy, the idea that healthy people set work and achieve their own goals. That has no bearing on anyone else, but this is how you build your self-worth. You set, work, and achieve a goal. The grandiose individual who ends up gaslighting or is a narcissist, they're not working on setting, work, and achieving their goals. They witness someone else's abilities. And in order to feel better in this relationship, the hierarchy, they will put them down. They're the bullies, they're the name corner, they say mean things, they hold things against them. And that's to have a sense of superiority. So you will hear mean, cruel, snide, sarcastic comments, which if I, the victim, have my unresolved issues, I may have a tendency of minimizing these inappropriate acts. I may say, like, oh, he's just working through his stuff, or it's not really that bad. I tend to say if you have to make excuses for your loved one, you're you're with the wrong person.

Gretta:

And so that's quotable. I like that a lot.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Here's one for the whole ghosting issue and for the gaslighting. Um, sometimes the best thing to do in a dysfunctional relationship is not be in it.

Gretta:

Right. Absolutely get out.

Dr. Shinitzky:

If I have my unresolved issues, I may I may change my values and standards to a lower standard just so I can maintain the relationship. This person saying mean, hurtful things, being cruel about their ex. These are snapshots of the person's underlying psychological makeup. But if I start to minimize their issues, these predators love that. They're looking for people who minimize. They they desire that kind of kindness because they'll just keep doing it rather than saying, whoa, that that's kind of, you know, hey, if the relationship didn't work out, it didn't work out. That's that's how it goes. And you want to be respectful. You are supposedly in a loving relationship. That's kind of a cruel thing to say about that other person. But that's important to the narcissist to be able to say, they're the one with the problem. That's why it ended, not me. And they the narcissist usually starts a relationship immediately or already has it in place, because then they can walk away and say, See, the problem's on me. Look, I'm I'm in a loving relationship. It was my ex. And so they will throw them under the bus, and they theoretically then can do that to other people, including the person they're in a relationship with.

Gretta:

So they move quickly from relationship to relationship.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Yeah, I look at it like a jungle gym on the playground as a kid, you know, and you grab one rung and you got to grab the next rung before you can let go of this rung. That's how they look at relationships. When you're in a relationship and you make a commitment and it doesn't work out, afterwards, you need to kind of heal. You need to go back and take some time. And what was it that I found appealing about this person? What kept me in the relationship? Did I minimize? What were my unresolved needs that were being exploited by this person? How early when I look back in my relationship, did I actually start witnessing those behaviors? And I just kind of negated them and trivialized them. I need to learn from my past so as not to repeat it in my future. If all I do is just jump ship to a new relationship, the odds are I'm going to take my unresolved issues and carry it on to the next relationship, too. So going from relationship to relationship like a revolving door is unhealthy. You really need to be able to discover what aspects that you want or need to improve upon for yourself to be in a healthy relationship.

Gretta:

Absolutely. And I just want the coping with ghosting community to know that taking time off from dating, like you're saying, is perfectly good. And educating yourself on things like this by listening to this podcast, good for you for doing that. A lot of people don't. And when you are in a relationship with a narcissist or you're starting to date one, you might go to your friends, to your family, and say, Oh, well, I noticed this and I noticed that. Your friends in your family who haven't done the kind of work that you're doing right now by listening to this might really not know how to detect a narcissist. They might encourage you to stay in that relationship and keep on going and minimize what's happening to you. But your reality is the most important thing. And so take care of yourself. Don't put up with this behavior, the garbage behavior from the narcissist. Get out as soon as you figure this out.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better. The the curious nature is there's also there are different subtypes of narcissists. And there's most commonly in conversations, people talk about the covert and the overt. Um, the overt narcissist is a bully. I mean, they are just rude, offensive, braggadocious, feel that they're special. I mean, there's there's no filter, just constantly kind of easy to spot them. And that that's actually why I wrote the book. I started seeing more and more of this in society. Uh, not just the relationships of patients, I was saying, but just positions of power being taken over by people who were this grandiose, pompous individual who, bottom line, does not care about the people they claim to be caring about, as long as they're just getting something from it. And that that started to concern me. So I wanted to share this. So the overt you spot, the covert, they put on this social facade. And so in society, they look uh thoughtful and considerate and helpful and making a difference out there, and they join boards and community of pro you know uh associations, and they're there. If someone needs money, they can offer it up, and if they need networking, they help connect them. But when they get home, there's a tectonic shift, and all of a sudden, they start bringing up the vulnerabilities of the one that they're in a loving relationship with. They use sarcasm, very cutting, rude. I had an individual I was working with who was in a very high status position. His wife gave up her career uh in the marriage to be a stay-at-home mom. So they both mutually agreed we had these roles. And he started saying things to her like, you know, I could do your job and mine. You know, if it wasn't for me, you know, you'd be out on the street. I mean, he was just this rude, offensive individual. And she would come in and share that. And occasionally she would get her husband to come in, and he would start apologizing for how his wife feels. He wouldn't apologize for his be in all the time. I knew them, he never once apologized for his behavior. He justified, rationalized, put it on her. And the more empowered she got, the more threatened he was of losing control. And so we see that dynamic where they want to put you back in this position. And so being able to challenge them on with some of those quotes that we had talked about earlier, that you know, just because, you know, I'm gonna stay with my point of view, my perspective. Um, like if you really cared about my experience, you would stop trying to erase it. You know, the ability to assert yourself, you know, you keep changing the subject every time I bring up my feelings. You know, that tendency by the externalizing judgmental hurtful individual. So there's covert that is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The overt, and then even worse, there's something called a malignant narcissist, and they're the most dangerous out there. They're they almost use sociopathy. Um the phrase I use in the book is if there is absolute loss of power and public shaming, they would be willing to leave a scorched earth. Again, because they don't care about anyone else. They just care about what they get from everyone. And if they have that taken away, they are unpredictable, erratic, and dangerous.

Gretta:

That's intense. Okay. Well, we have covered so much. I think I have five more points, but I want to bundle too. I have love bombing and I have fast-tracking intimacy. And I feel like they go hand in hand. And you've already talked about love bombing. I don't think we've really talked about how it can show up in the sense of somebody will give you gifts, maybe they'll buy you a plane ticket for your second date or something crazy, or try to marry you on the third date. Like they love bomb you so fast to get control of you, but also they try to get intimate with you really fast to manipulate and control you as well. Can you speak about that?

Dr. Shinitzky:

Well, yeah, men and women can be narcissists. Based on the research, it's about 75% male to female in terms of uh the individuals who have been identified as narcissists. And that has a lot to do with societal positions. So we have individuals in positions of power that can exploit individuals for whatever their needs are. And like you said, try to marry quickly, power them with extraordinary gifts. And that's because they don't look at relationships as people. Again, they're objects of their desire. And so, what can I do to win the person over? It's not can I develop a loving relationship, it's can I take advantage of them for my benefit? You know, here's my new arm candy that I get to walk around with. That's why you see a lot of these mismatch relationships. Um so when you have someone who's love bombing or trying to dive into quickly, the drawback can be again, I always want to empower the individual I'm working with, who's a survivor. What was it about you that allowed you to be taken advantage of? What was missing that this person was rewarding you with? Because they found that out to take advantage of. And I sure don't want you to be in the same position five years from now. So helping to empower the individual, they might have had the belief that if I just fully commit, I'll help change this person. Now that's your agenda. It has nothing to do with this exploiter. Uh, another phrase I like to use is the narcissist is consciousless, conscience. But everybody else has a conscience. So I'm doing it for a good reason. I'm doing it to take advantage of. I have no guilt, no remorse. I can do anything to anyone anytime. So when someone believes, let's dive in, that'll really be the smart thing to do. Odds are for this individual, it's because of some unresolved issue where they need not to be alone and to reap these rewards so they're easily exploited. And this person wants to dive in, as you said, to control, to be able to manipulate, and it's only for their gain. By the way, in the research, when they talk about intimacy, they oftentimes talk about how the person who's the abuser will like just overwhelm the person with the activities of intimacy, but it's purely from their ego development to be able to say, look what I can do, rather than what are the needs of this loved one that I have? What how can I be sensitive to what their needs got nothing to do with that? It's part of being, look what I can do, the braggart about it. Again, it has nothing to do with the other person or the relationship. Again, if this person questions them, doubts them, challenges them, this person is more than willing to ghost them. I don't need it, don't want it, because I'm not in a relationship. It's transactional. And if I'm not getting what I want under the bus with you, I I will ruin you if possible. Uh um, I've had relationships where they've divorced, they've both found new people, started new families, but this one over here is spending every waking hour still trying to figure out how they can destroy their ex.

Gretta:

Ah, that's painful.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Yeah, I had a military family where the husband found his wife cheating again. He was getting towards retirement. He was gonna get a promotion that would help him for his retirement and uh the economics for he and the family. And when he found out she was cheating, he said, That's it. You know, I'm not gonna go on in the rest of my life in a loveless marriage where you're just cheating. Well, she couldn't acknowledge that she was the cause. So she contacted his superior officer on the base, told him that her husband was sleeping with a subordinate, which then interfered with not only his promotion, but he he was then demoted, which affected not only his retirement, but their retirement, including what was going to be there for the kids. The phrase that will the someone ever get through this? And the bottom line is when it's a high conflict case like that, and there's a narcissist who's willing to destroy, that will not end until they learn to love their kids more than they hate their ex.

Gretta:

Wow. That says it all.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Understanding that as the victim, what can I do to empower me, especially if the relationship is going to end? Um, yeah, I mean, you need to be able to get as much support as possible, whether it's therapy, friends, legal, whatever it is, but you there is a there is a chance that this individual, the abuser, is. Going to try to control the funds and um visitation, and I mean really terrible things to do with to someone you theoretically loved previously.

Gretta:

My next one is narcissistic victimhood. So this is where the narcissists flip the script and make themselves out to be the victim, maybe of their exes, but they're really the ones causing the harm.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Yeah, all of these are taught to them at a very young age, and all of these patterns of behavior are learned over time. Everything I think feels say and do makes sense to me. Everything you think feels say and do makes sense to you. We're all a bit narcissistic. I mean, it's kind of uh self-love, is a bit of that, but it's on a continuum. The narcissist will do things because it makes absolute sense to them. What are the odds I'm going to get caught and are the consequences great enough? And everything I think feels say and do makes sense to me. So rules don't apply to me, laws don't apply to me, morals don't apply to me. I can do these things. But as soon as they're challenged, they take on the victim role. Oh my gosh, this is a witch hunt. You are taking advantage of me. This is totally unfair. It's it's made up, it's just not real. So this tendency of flipping the switch, the victim role, I tend to say to individuals that I'm working with, you need to take the wind out of their sail. So before you object to something, before you share your feelings, before you observe something, you need to be able to say, you know, I noticed in the past when I would bring something up, you would then take this role, this victim, and you might attack me, or you would like take this wounded bird role, like, oh, there's nothing I can do. Why don't we be able to see if we can just talk about something for a moment? So I tend to encourage people to call out the behavior before the behavior happens to be able to then kind of uh reinforce the ability to have a mature conversation. But remember, you don't control somebody else. You asserting that, expressing that, doesn't mean they're going to do it. And they've learned that this works to take that victim role. Um, I do things inappropriate, but I have no insight to that. So I'm just doing things that make sense to me. And you should treat me special, and only other people cannot. So they it's truly a reflection of their distorted pathology. And their victim role is anything that doesn't make sense to them, any discussion, any questioning, any change of point of view. They're just say, you I'm I'm the one who's wounded here. And so I like to preemptively identify that before it happens, and then to try to have a conversation.

Gretta:

Yeah, it's a good thing to look out for. The next one I have on my list is control and surveillance. And I've seen this in a lot of different ways. One in particular that really upset me was somebody was in a relationship with a person who needed to know what their significant other was doing at all times, to the point where uh they had to have a webcam in the room so that the narcissist could watch and monitor her activities all day.

Dr. Shinitzky:

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the three C's, but uh, if you didn't cause their ghosts, you can't cure their ghosts. So you gotta figure out how you're gonna cope with this. And part of that, like we were saying before, is it's not my issue, it's your issue. Your insecurities I can't reassure you out of. You have to work on this. If I need clarity, I may look up something online, and now I have clarity. Issues resolved, but not for what you're talking about with these insecurities, with the jealousy. I I need to know. Let me let me let me check your phone. Let me let me check your text messages. All right, did you see anything that was inappropriate? No. Oh, okay. Well, so this is resolved now, isn't it? No, no, no, no. You have to keep showing it to me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, now we're crossing boundaries. I need to monitor what's going on. I can't cure someone else's insecurities, someone's jealousies, they need to be in therapy. If the only way this dance works is that you have to be jealous and I have to reassure. And then you have to be insecure and I have to express my consistency. And you that will not work. That is a recipe for a continued life of that. Um, had a young lady who was gonna meet her friends at a local restaurant for lunch. And one of the friends who lived in the neighboring town was a little under the weather. So all of her friends decide to, well, we'll just drive over to where you're at and we'll have lunch out there. Small little hole in the wall restaurant. In the middle of lunch, the door to the restaurant bursts open, and her husband is there and he's pointing his finger. I knew you were cheating, I knew I'd catch you. And there she is with her friends. The only way he would know where she's at, he had a tracker on either the phone or on uh the car, and we had to end up talking to her about how this is a dangerous position. I mean, where he actually is willing to go after, I mean, he was ready for a full attack. The tendency of needing to know everything, I tend to say the most controlling people I work with are the least controlled people I work with. If things don't go exactly the way they want, they have emotional dysregulation. That's where it can become scary. So you can't cure someone else's ghosts, they have to address it. But no one addresses something unless they have insight and awareness. So when a narcissist is referred to me by their spouse, I start out a conversation in the book that just talks about how I asked the guy, why are we getting together? And he said, Well, because my wife found out that I'm having an affair. So if your wife didn't find out, we wouldn't be here. And you're saying she thinks it's wrong, not you. And you said have ing, so it's still current and would still keep going. No insight, no motivation to change, nothing like that. And that's what most narcissists are. So they don't even present themselves in therapy. Um, if they ever do, and you're listeners, I hopefully you can take this in. There needs to be a major frontal assault to their ego. And what would make you or me or your listeners feel a little uncomfortable? I'd be like if someone said, Well, you know, you said we made at seven, and you know, it didn't even show. It's like I feel kind of devalued. You're like, oh, my bad, my bad, I'm sorry. Uh, let me change that behavior. I'll be there. I it's all on me. Mia copa, mia copa, mia grande copa. And just that little comment, I'm like a little disappointed. Uh, uh, because it's moral values that we live by. A major frontal assault is usually beyond most people's understanding of what a major frontal assault is. I mean, someone just tells me they're I disappointed them. I'm, oh no, I'm I'm sorry. How do we fix this? No, no, no. It has to be far beyond your wildest imagination. That's why I was saying if they lose power, if it's public shaming, that's a frontal assault. And I've had some individuals who were narcissists who came in and realized, and that brief window, when the defecation hit the rotary oscillator, that they finally presented and said, Well, maybe there is something about me. And that brief window gave us an opportunity to focus on where'd you learn this? What pattern does it serve for you? Um, what what can you do to actually feel better about yourself versus dominating and controlling others? Um, maybe rules do apply to you, you know, and then you start addressing all those criteria, which the narcissist would then be at that moment open to consider. Otherwise, they haven't done anything wrong because everything they think, feel say and do makes sense to them.

Gretta:

Wow. I love the language you use to express that concept. Thank you.

Dr. Shinitzky:

You're welcome. I've always I've always enjoyed sharing information, um, this ability to make sure that your listeners hopefully will understand what we're talking about. I I try not to use psycho-dabble and jargon and stuff like that. Um, the cool thing is empowering you, the individual, the survivor, the victim, you really want to take a look at yourself. I mean, okay, the jerk was a jerk. All right, we got that. But there was a point where you accepted the jerk. You found the jerk appealing. There was some reason when the jerk was behaving like a jerk. You were like, ah, you know, it's not that bad. Um, I'm gonna be the reason to change the jerk. Like, let's take a look at that. Because I don't want you to have to go through this for a summer rerun. I want this to be where you grow and improve and become the change you want in the universe.

Gretta:

Exactly. You can't change a zebra's stripes, just memorize that for dating.

Dr. Shinitzky:

That is a hundred percent true. The the curious aspect, if I can use a little psychobabble for a second. All right. So as your listeners are moving forward in their own recovery, um there's this, there are these three phrases in psychological terms, and I apologize, but I want to share. There's uh ego strength, ego strength, then there's ego boundary, and then there's ego differentiation. In psychological terms, ego doesn't mean big-headed. In psychological terms, ego means identity. So identity strength, ego strength, ego boundary, identity, boundary, and ego differentiation, identity differentiation. Ego strength, I encourage the individuals I work with to take a look at their core values. What is their moral standards, their beliefs, their values? What do they stand on and for? What are their acceptable behaviors that you can work with, negotiables, and what are the non-negotiables that you know, these are veto, these are this is when relationships end, that's completely unacceptable, be it like cheating or physical assaults or stuff like that. Ego strength. The more you know who you are, the more resilient you are, the less the world overwhelms you or impacts you in a negative way. So getting to know truly who you are, ego strength. Then there's ego boundary. It's kind of like sticking your hand out like the old police officer. It's all right, so I know where I end and the other begins. I am not them, they are not me. It's not a semi-permeable membrane. And so understanding that there's this point where I as an individual stop and it becomes the world. And the problem is many people project their beliefs on the world because everything I think, feel, say, and do makes sense to me. Therefore, well, what the heck? Everyone else should be doing the same. You know, I don't lie, so people shouldn't lie. But it makes sense to me, but the world lives by its own agenda. So now we get to ego differentiation. Everything someone else thinks, feels, says, and does is the statement of them. So if someone cheats, that's not a statement of me. That's a statement of that person that relationships don't have value and rules don't apply to them, and the uh issues of boundaries and borders, you know, and relationships and they cheat. That's a statement of them. So if I have good ego strength, sense of self, I know where I end and someone else begins. Someone else's behavior is a reflection of that person. I don't personalize their behavior, which is incredibly powerful for the victim or survivor as they move forward in life to now see other people for who they are, not to minimize, trivialize, or negate it. So I apologize for using a little bit of psycho jargon there, but hopefully it's helpful for your listeners.

Gretta:

Well, I absolutely love that you said that. And the way I say it is way, it's it's it takes away the jargon, but I just say betrayal, cheating, ghosting, it's a them problem, not a you problem.

Dr. Shinitzky:

Bingo. Absolutely correct. Yeah.

Gretta:

Yeah. So all the other things that I have on my list that I wanted to talk about, you've already touched on, like self-importance and blame shifting. Blame shifting was another one. Is there anything else that you'd like to add to my list of signs that someone could be a narcissist?

Dr. Shinitzky:

Well, going back to that whole idea of first off, how they treat you at home versus in society, that would be the covert narcissist. The overt, hey, if you're finding that acceptable, I'd be wondering, what are your underlying needs? Like, do I just want financial security? So there's a price for love. Do I have um issues with my self-worth? So I can't be alone. I would rather accept I need to be in a relationship. I had an athlete that I was working with who felt that way. She didn't feel complete without a relationship because all of her friends on the tour as a tennis player had relationships. So she was willing to accept a bad guy. Because she was willing, she just wanted a relationship, which speaks to her underlying needs. And he was controlling and blowing up her phone and accusing her of cheating. And then she's playing in a tournament and she's practicing. And he was such a drain on her, trying to assuage his concerns and reassure him. She was getting tired of it. So we worked on her self-worth, how to set a boundary with teeth. He violated it once, she prompted him. He violated it twice, and she said, Listen, this is you. I'm not asking you to change. We're no longer going on together. You can find someone else. And the next month, she won a major Grand Slam tournament. She suddenly had the energy to focus on something that she really valued. And once she realized that she had to work through this unresolved issue, I think it was about a year later, she met a very kind-hearted, compassionate young man who understood that she was a very busy and successful independent woman, and they could have a loving relationship. And so it it starts from the individual for their future.

Gretta:

Beautiful. Well, wow, thank you so much. This has been amazing. How can listeners get in touch with you? And uh, where can they find all your books?

Dr. Shinitzky:

Um, I'm on Amazon. Um, so there are four different books. Again, they're all written for the general public. I try to avoid the psycho babble. Um, if you went to my website, uh, which is www.dr Shinitzky, dr-s-in-i-t-z-k-y.com. And you can get some background information on me, links to the books. Um, I do presentations all over the place. I love sharing information. This has been a delight for me. So thank you.

Gretta:

Yes, it's been a delight for me as well. So thank you so much for the important work you're doing and for the wisdom you shared with the audience and the listeners and the viewers. Please subscribe to my YouTube. Follow me at Coping with Ghosting all over social media, and join my free and private Coping with Ghosting Facebook support group. And finally, remember, no matter what you're facing, you're not alone, and you're worthy of care and connection. You deserve the best.